Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

But how you (or I, or anyone else) 'judges' others is neither here nor there when it comes to sport. Sport is not everyday life.

As long as someone is not flashing at me, changing the rules of organisations to which I belong so that they are no longer for women, or generally behaving in an 'alpha male' manner, I couldn't care less about their biology. It wouldn't occur to me to wonder, really, and if it were obvious (which is usually is) I wouldn't care. On the whole, though, it doesn't matter.

But that is not what's happening here. It does matter that the language no longer describes the female sex accurately. It matters that research into society in general and sex-based inequality in particular is flawed, and doesn't show how women hare disadvantaged. It matters that safe spaces for women are no longer available. And it matters that women are not able to have careers at the top of their class in sport, as the female class no longer exists. And that's without the impact on children who are encouraged to see their bodies as 'wrong', and to medicate those bodies when they are perfectly healthy - they matter.

I'm sick of saying this, but I am not opposed to transwomen at all. But the bottom line is that they are male, and when that matters they should be recognised as such. That may upset their feelings, but what about the feelings of the women that are being disadvantaged? We matter too.

It is not discriminatory to say that male-bodied people can 'live as' whatever they like within the law, and be protected by law so that they can do so unmolested; but that when it matters, for reasons of safety, decency or fairness, that they should be treated as male. What is the problem with that?

Doodledog

It is perfectly possible to support all women without prioritising transwomen. Just is it is impossible to prioritise transwomen and still support women.

They are different - a transwoman is biologically male, and no amount of 'wishing to be' female can change that. This is the problem. As long as you insist that it is possible to change sex, that people have the ability to insist on being whatever they want to be (and to hell with anyone else), there is never going to be agreement.

I see your POV as illogical, because it is simply not possible to 'insist on' changing biology, and misogynistic as it is women who come off worse whenever transwomen are imposed upon us, and you have said that my POV is pathetic, racist, homophobic and worse. I can't see an area for compromise, as I will never believe that magic words will change biology, or that women should be sidelined to appease the 'feelings' of men.

I have no desire to change anyone's biology. I don't know what most people's biology is. I,like most people, judge by appearances and presentation. I see women as women. I don't see how in everyday life anyone can do anything else.
The perils of using birth sex as identification have been seen in American sports. The problems of what will happen if transmen are designated as women and use women's facilities are obvious. The idea that biology is going to solve any of these problems is unfounded. The dangers to any women who choose to dress or present in an alternative way are quite obvious.

It isn't misogynistic to say transwomen are amongst us and will remain amongst us. The dangers to natal women do not come from them, but from those who want to establish some sort of standard of womanhood, a standard many of us will fall short of.

All this is without the disquieting policies of right wing christianity which has openly asserted that beginning by targeting trans people is an advisable way of bringing back restrictions, which they refer to as "family friendly" policies. Abortion is also under threat from these people and homosexuality will follow. You may not think so but actively endorsing these policies will eventually harm all women

Sorry to quote my own post, but I wonder why this was also ignored?

I am not interested in 'designations'. If someone is male-bodied they should compete against other males, just as female-bodied athletes should compete against women. How is that discriminatory or unfair?

I would love to know why, when sport is about strength, speed, aim, endurance etc (not to mention fame and considerable fortune for the winners) what 'designation' or 'feelings' have to do with it? How can it be fair to measure physically unmatched people against one another and call it a win?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny Apparently as no one has objected to Michael Phelps his genetic abnormalities are acceptable, it's just women's that aren't. That would indicate that nobody thought MP was having an unfair advantage, MP raced against the same sex competitors as himself. CS now wants to knowingly race against opposite sex competitors. As I said in my earlier post, CS would never have been known to the world if CS had raced in the correct sex class. CS has had loads of advantages that wouldn't have been possible but for being mis-sexed at birth. When I correctly sex CS that is not prejudice that's biology. It's not my fault there are two immutable sexes and CS is male. CS can 'live as a woman' in virtually every aspect of life, but should not expect to compete against females. Once you know you are essentially cheating, surely the moral responsibility is on the individual to cease that activity. Do you not expect moral responsibility from CS?

Most transmen would probably prefer to keep using male facilities. As a woman that's fine with me, if men object that's up to them to fight their corner just like women have had to.

It really doesn't matter what you think transmen will do Rosie51 The argument has always been that it isn't all transwomen that are the problem, but predatory and dangerous men who choose to dress as women. Once you say transmen are women men can march into women's facilities without even needing to dress up and if challenged can say they are transmen.

The fact that you can't grasp that shows that your prejudice is against transwomen and is neither logical nor well thought out.

As for CS the fact that you insist she is a man, in spite of her insisting she wishes to remain a woman, has fought through the courts for her rights and has been accorded a decision by the EU court that her human rights have been abused, and you consistently misgender her shows nothing but prejudice.
Goodness knows what restrictions you will want imposed on other women. You certainly don't support all women. Only those who fit your own preconceptions.

It would be nice if just for once you didn't lie about what I've posted. I do not call CS a man, I state the biological truth that CS is male. I have never misgendered CS. Sometimes you acknowledge that sex and 'gender' are different things. I refer to CS by neutral pronouns, so as not to misgender, but I will correctly sex CS. Are you trying to say CS is a biological female? Have you still not grasped that 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency exclusively affects males? Who made all those court decisions about CS. Wouldn't be predominately 'white males' would it, the ones you despise?

I can grasp full well what you say about men invading women's spaces and declaring themselves to be transmen. I just don't see that as a reason to let males compete in female sports, or to not try to exclude them from single sex spaces.

As for supporting all women, where has your support been for those female athletes who have lost out on medals and sponsorship money because they were displaced by a male body, whether that was CS or a transwoman athlete? The only females I've seen you support are transmen. Your prejudice against women who want single sex sports, to have a fair chance in competition is blindingly obvious.

As Mollygo pointed out, when the suffragettes were fighting for women to get the vote.

Yes, That minority group of women who fought for the rights of all women (AHF) against those males who thought they should not have those rights. And in those days, like today, those males were supported by some women who were happy to be subjugated.

You ignored her excellent post. I wonder why?

Well said DoodleDog.
The wishing, fantasising, lying and cheating practised by some TW, who insist that others should accept their lying, cheating and fantasising or deserve to be subject to violence is made worse for females by some women who support those actions on the grounds that
it is impossible to police.
and numerous other diversionary tactics

Glorianny repeatedly appears to support this misogyny, males cheating females out of honestly earned medals, males demanding access to female safe spaces or prisons, always using the same excuses.
Glorianny,
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

I haven’t commented about Michael Phelps, because he is a man and isn’t claiming to be a woman, so for me is not part of the issue.

It is perfectly possible to support all women without prioritising transwomen. Just is it is impossible to prioritise transwomen and still support women.

They are different - a transwoman is biologically male, and no amount of 'wishing to be' female can change that. This is the problem. As long as you insist that it is possible to change sex, that people have the ability to insist on being whatever they want to be (and to hell with anyone else), there is never going to be agreement.

I see your POV as illogical, because it is simply not possible to 'insist on' changing biology, and misogynistic as it is women who come off worse whenever transwomen are imposed upon us, and you have said that my POV is pathetic, racist, homophobic and worse. I can't see an area for compromise, as I will never believe that magic words will change biology, or that women should be sidelined to appease the 'feelings' of men.

Rosie51

Glorianny Apparently as no one has objected to Michael Phelps his genetic abnormalities are acceptable, it's just women's that aren't. That would indicate that nobody thought MP was having an unfair advantage, MP raced against the same sex competitors as himself. CS now wants to knowingly race against opposite sex competitors. As I said in my earlier post, CS would never have been known to the world if CS had raced in the correct sex class. CS has had loads of advantages that wouldn't have been possible but for being mis-sexed at birth. When I correctly sex CS that is not prejudice that's biology. It's not my fault there are two immutable sexes and CS is male. CS can 'live as a woman' in virtually every aspect of life, but should not expect to compete against females. Once you know you are essentially cheating, surely the moral responsibility is on the individual to cease that activity. Do you not expect moral responsibility from CS?

Most transmen would probably prefer to keep using male facilities. As a woman that's fine with me, if men object that's up to them to fight their corner just like women have had to.

It really doesn't matter what you think transmen will do Rosie51 The argument has always been that it isn't all transwomen that are the problem, but predatory and dangerous men who choose to dress as women. Once you say transmen are women men can march into women's facilities without even needing to dress up and if challenged can say they are transmen.

The fact that you can't grasp that shows that your prejudice is against transwomen and is neither logical nor well thought out.

As for CS the fact that you insist she is a man, in spite of her insisting she wishes to remain a woman, has fought through the courts for her rights and has been accorded a decision by the EU court that her human rights have been abused, and you consistently misgender her shows nothing but prejudice.
Goodness knows what restrictions you will want imposed on other women. You certainly don't support all women. Only those who fit your own preconceptions.

Glorianny Apparently as no one has objected to Michael Phelps his genetic abnormalities are acceptable, it's just women's that aren't. That would indicate that nobody thought MP was having an unfair advantage, MP raced against the same sex competitors as himself. CS now wants to knowingly race against opposite sex competitors. As I said in my earlier post, CS would never have been known to the world if CS had raced in the correct sex class. CS has had loads of advantages that wouldn't have been possible but for being mis-sexed at birth. When I correctly sex CS that is not prejudice that's biology. It's not my fault there are two immutable sexes and CS is male. CS can 'live as a woman' in virtually every aspect of life, but should not expect to compete against females. Once you know you are essentially cheating, surely the moral responsibility is on the individual to cease that activity. Do you not expect moral responsibility from CS?

Most transmen would probably prefer to keep using male facilities. As a woman that's fine with me, if men object that's up to them to fight their corner just like women have had to.

Another oft reiterated mantra from you Glorianny.
But if as you keep saying, trans have been among us for a long time, it’s quite obvious that Trans among us wasn’t a problem until some TW made it obvious that they were male, and wanted to use their TW status to lie and cheat their way into female safe spaces, female competitions, etc.
These malicious males, even after being imprisoned for rape, decide to claim they they are TW and should be incarcerated in female prisons.
Those trans who don’t do any of those things have suffered because of the other TW actions. Do you think the cheats, liars and malicious TW care?

Your strategy of Constantly saying or implying that something won’t work to stop TW cheating and lying, whilst not attempting to come up with something that will work is a crafty way of giving approval to the actions of those TW, whether you agree with that or not.

I noticed you reverted to toilets as soon as I suggested a solution to your sporting competitors from remote countries, implying that you are unwilling to accept anything that would work to keep males from cheating in female sports.
Transwomen are male Glorianny.
Still wondering what I’d say about transmen, but you didn’t respond to my answer.

Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Smileless2012

"Trans Women Are Transwomen" because they are men.

I know you believe that also according to this
Transmen are women.
So that bloke entering the ladies can't be turned out, he's a transman ( or says he is)

Honestly the blaming on this thread is unbelievable. It seems that the only way you can support your ideas is by accusing me of things I have never said. All that actually does is show the weakness of your argument.

Rosie51 south Africa may not be a poor country. CS was born in Limpopo.
The Public healthcare facilities in Limpopo are also marred with shortages of essential medicines, which includes vaccines and contraceptives, resulting in patients often being sent home empty handed or given alternative medication.

“The most common stockouts/shortages reported by facilities were vaccines (10 facilities) and contraceptives (eight facilities). Injections (seven out of 12 reports) were the most common out-of-stock contraceptives reported by facilities. And of the clinics that experienced a stockout or shortage, as reported by the facility manager, 50% were forced to send people away empty handed, and 50% gave them alternatives,” the report stated.

In July this year, Health-e News reported that public health facilities in Limpopo were faced with shortages of two types of injectable contraceptives, namely Dep-Provera and Noristrate. They were also experiencing shortages of essential childhood vaccines, which are given to babies at nine and 18 months
But you expect them to do DNA tests

CS was examined by the African Athletics association at 18, by the International Athletics Association after her win and designated a woman.
All your assertions about her being a man just show prejudice. Whatever her medical condition she is entitled to live as she has all her life.
Apparently as no one has objected to Michael Phelps his genetic abnormalities are acceptable, it's just women's that aren't.

I have always maintained that spaces where women require transwomen to be banned should and are able to do so. But I have also said that it is not only foolish to think you can but actually impossible to monitor and regulate all facilities, that doing so imposes on all women standards of appearance that some women will not meet and so impacts negatively on them. I have yet to see any clear explanation of how it is proposed to keep transwomen out . Showing the flaws in your argument is not disregarding women it is simply showing impracticality. I've said it before transwomen are among us, they aren't going to go away and you can't automatically identify them by sight.

"Trans Women Are Transwomen" because they are men.

DoodleDog
But there is more to being a woman than having a vagina. If CS is biologically male, the male class is the right (and fair) one in which to compete.

'Identifying', 'designations', 'feelings' - none of those things make someone a woman (or a man). We are what we are.

Good points-though I fear they’ll fall on deaf ears.

And Rosie is, of course, right to point out that your concern for CS is in direct contrast to your disregard for women being forced to share showers, changing rooms, refuges, cells, rape suites and so on with male-bodied people who say they 'identify' as women. Why is it wrong for CS but perfectly fine for Ms Average and her teenage daughter, or 5 year old granddaughter to have to be amongst male-bodied people when vulnerable? Those women don't even have the consolation of the prize money or the accolades to offset their loss of privacy and dignity, yet you have made it very clear that you don't care about them.

This disregard for women is one of the most consistently reiterated parts of your posts Glorianny. I’ve read your posts where you drag in all sorts of deviations, whether it’s POC or tall, strong, muscular, deep voiced people or even those involved in WW11, but underlying all these is your determined belief that fairness and equality for females means that TW should be allowed access to female safe spaces, roles, competitions and sports, despite the fact that they are male.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Of course back in the real world CS wouldn't be sharing facilities with other males because CS wouldn't make the cut as an elite male athlete. CS's fastest time for the 800m is 1.54.25, the 4th fastest in women's times. The 4th fastest male time for 800m is 1.43.05 over 11 seconds faster than CS. CS has enjoyed prizes and sponsorship money they would never have had competing as a male, while denying females that chance. Perhaps instead of being angry CS should count their blessings.

No those are people in sports who have women's genitalia but would be made to take part as men so would be in men's changing areas using male facilities. How is it wriggling? It is what you want. Caster Semenya has a vagina, but you would just stick her in with men and leave her to it.
But there is more to being a woman than having a vagina. If CS is biologically male, the male class is the right (and fair) one in which to compete.

'Identifying', 'designations', 'feelings' - none of those things make someone a woman (or a man). We are what we are.

And Rosie is, of course, right to point out that your concern for CS is in direct contrast to your disregard for women being forced to share showers, changing rooms, refuges, cells, rape suites and so on with male-bodied people who say they 'identify' as women. Why is it wrong for CS but perfectly fine for Ms Average and her teenage daughter, or 5 year old granddaughter to have to be amongst male-bodied people when vulnerable? Those women don't even have the consolation of the prize money or the accolades to offset their loss of privacy and dignity, yet you have made it very clear that you don't care about them.

I do notice that Glorianny has completely ignored your excellent post of 13.30.42 Mollygo which addressed so well her points about what minorities have achieved.

Glorianny

Mollygo

As for your proposal Mollygo you are happy to have women with vaginas and female genitalia classified as male and made to use men's facilities. Presumably they are just fair game for any man who wants to assault them?
I see your strategy now. Now I’ve organised the sport so it’s fair, you’ve gone back to toilets.

Fun to see you wriggle Glorianny, but sad that you continue to do so.

No those are people in sports who have women's genitalia but would be made to take part as men so would be in men's changing areas using male facilities. How is it wriggling? It is what you want. Caster Semenya has a vagina, but you would just stick her in with men and leave her to it.

You didn't have any problem with Lia Thomas complete with penis and testicles sharing the locker room with females with vulvas and vaginas though did you? And exposing a semi erect penis to those young females. Nor presumably any of the other transwomen with complete male genitalia who want to use facilities with females in a state of undress. CS could have separate arrangements made to change away from the other men.

Michael Phelps didn't identify as someone shorter with smaller feet. He competed in his sex class and had tremendous success. I don't recall his competitors ever saying they felt cheated because he had these natural advantages. If you have evidence that they did perhaps you could supply links?

The naturally high testosterone level in people like CS is because they are male and have functioning internal testes. They are competing in the wrong sex class because they aren't female. You do know that South Africa is not a scientifically backward country don't you? It's quite insulting of you to imply their sports federations are incapable of testing young athletes as they progress up the levels. Maybe 30 years ago DNA swabs wouldn't have been routine, nowadays they can easily be.

Still waiting for evidence of all these AHF who have tested male on DNA who are being made to compete in male sports. You keep mentioning all those . . .
Are you now agreeing that men would attack ‘women’? I’ve been saying that’s why males shouldn’t be allowed in female safe spaces for so long, only to have you disagree.

But wriggle away.

Always identifying as a woman doesn't make you a woman Glorianny and in order to make sport as fair as possible, anyone with the advantage of being biologically male should not be able to compete against women.

The case of Pratima Goankar is tragic but that should not be used to justify men cheating in order to 'win' because they compete with women. I've never understood what satisfaction there is in being first when you've cheated in order to do so.

We appear to have gone from racist jibes to jibes about those of us who disagree with you, being happy that, and I assume you're referring to trans women, being "made to use men's facilities" because we regard them as "fair game for any man who wants to assault them".

Michael Phelps is a biological male who competes with biological males. Bringing him once again into this discussion is as relevant as your introduction of race; irrelevant.

Mollygo

*As for your proposal Mollygo you are happy to have women with vaginas and female genitalia classified as male and made to use men's facilities. Presumably they are just fair game for any man who wants to assault them?*
I see your strategy now. Now I’ve organised the sport so it’s fair, you’ve gone back to toilets.

Fun to see you wriggle Glorianny, but sad that you continue to do so.

No those are people in sports who have women's genitalia but would be made to take part as men so would be in men's changing areas using male facilities. How is it wriggling? It is what you want. Caster Semenya has a vagina, but you would just stick her in with men and leave her to it.

As for your proposal Mollygo you are happy to have women with vaginas and female genitalia classified as male and made to use men's facilities. Presumably they are just fair game for any man who wants to assault them?
I see your strategy now. Now I’ve organised the sport so it’s fair, you’ve gone back to toilets.

Fun to see you wriggle Glorianny, but sad that you continue to do so.

So you would impose on people who have always identified as women restrictions which would massively impact on their lives. To such an extent that they may even commit suicide, like the Indian swimmer Pratima Gaonkar en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Pratima_Gaonkar

Unfortunately, I think that yes, restrictions need to be imposed, as the alternative is to restrict the access to success, education and achievement to women in favour of a small number of male-bodied people. I'm afraid that I don't see threats of suicide as reason to give in to anything that would otherwise be seen as unconscionable. Much as I don't want to see people take their lives, emotional blackmail cannot form a basis for law.

I am not interested in 'designations'. If someone is male-bodied they should compete against other males, just as female-bodied athletes should compete against women. How is that discriminatory or unfair.

Doodledog

But sport is discriminatory by definition. It discriminates against those without the physiology and psychological make-up to get to the top. It discriminates against those who don't have the means to attend training sessions, or to travel to competitions. And those who live with cultural expectations to cover up, to marry and get pregnant early and in all sorts of other ways.

Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right, though. I do get that. But however someone is 'designated' at birth, the fact remains that there are two sexes, and if it turns out that someone who thought she was a woman is in fact male, then that person should not be competing as a woman. There is no compulsion to take medication or to stop competing. The answer is to compete against other male-bodied people. That is fair, and has nothing to do with race.

So you would impose on people who have always identified as women restrictions which would massively impact on their lives. To such an extent that they may even commit suicide, like the Indian swimmer Pratima Gaonkar en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Pratima_Gaonkar

As you have said there are many differences which confer advantages on sports people. Michael Phelps has been discussed. If his differences are permitted why are those who have always been designated women not permitted differences? Does a three inch difference in reach count less than a minimal difference in testosterone?

As for your proposal Mollygo you are happy to have women with vaginas and female genitalia classified as male and made to use men's facilities. Presumably they are just fair game for any man who wants to assault them?

What do you mean by being made more equal Glorianny?
All your posts so far seem to indicate that women’s sport being more equal must include cheating males.

So how will you stop males competing in female sports, Glorianny? Or are you still supporting the males? The excuses you keep using about remote countries implies that the sports organisers required to get athletes into competitions are either ignorant or cheats themselves.

Now there is a simple DNA swab test, it should be part of every would-be athlete’s training or competitive life. So right from the start competitors would know which sex they are.
Even those in the remote countries who take part in competitions would take part in the test. It would be discriminatory to allow those remote country competitors to be excused on the grounds of their remoteness, and those organising them are already aware that their athletes would face that test.

It should be repeated at the start of every competition, like drug testing, for everyone-not just those likely to be cheating. As with drug testing, the medal winners should be immediately swabbed after a competition as well.

Sadly, there would have to be arrangements made to prevent cheating at that stage too.
The most upsetting thing about this is that while CS was male, there was some confusion about that and the solution was wrongly, IMO to make him take drugs.
Drugs in sport are always wrong.
There is no confusion about Liar Thomas or Emily Bridges who simply see cheating as a way of winning and displacing females from the podium.
I am interested in exactly how many of these remote country male athletes who think they are female there are. Maybe G has the figures at her finger tips.

*However, to make female sport fair, the issue of athletes not knowing what sex they are is the problem that needs addressing, not the inclusion of cheating males in female competitions.
Trans Women Are Transwomen, Glorianny.

But sport is discriminatory by definition. It discriminates against those without the physiology and psychological make-up to get to the top. It discriminates against those who don't have the means to attend training sessions, or to travel to competitions. And those who live with cultural expectations to cover up, to marry and get pregnant early and in all sorts of other ways.

Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right, though. I do get that. But however someone is 'designated' at birth, the fact remains that there are two sexes, and if it turns out that someone who thought she was a woman is in fact male, then that person should not be competing as a woman. There is no compulsion to take medication or to stop competing. The answer is to compete against other male-bodied people. That is fair, and has nothing to do with race.