Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

And Glorianny has singularly failed to look up 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, a condition which only affects males. Glorianny thinks males should be able to compete in the female category if they have suffered from a mis-sexing at birth or if they "feel like a woman" in the case of transwomen. And all with no reduction of natural testosterone levels.

Glorianny the men's records for running, long jump, high jump, pole vault, triple jump, and the throwing events all exceed the women's records even though the women use lighter shots for the shotput etc Is that down to biological difference or just those pesky 'cis white men'?

It isn't my opinion you are rejecting, it is black people's. Which I suppose is its own type of racism. You consider black people's opinions on racism to be the most valid, yet you reject women athlete's opinions on the fairness of them having to compete against male bodies. I suppose that is its own type of misogyny.

Incidentally Rosie51 may have a scientific background but she has patently failed to do her research on people with XY syndrome. It depends upon the actual condition if an individual has a vagina and if the person goes through puberty. Details on the link I posted.

Doodledog

Nobody is ‘targeting’ anyone. Nobody is insisting that anyone takes medication.

Unlike Rosie, I don’t have a scientific background, so I can’t be specific about what CS’s condition involves, but the fact remains that CS is male-bodied, so should not be running against women. CS’s race, lifestyle, genitalia are irrelevant- if CS is male then women’s sport is the wrong category- make-bodied people should compete against men.

In any case this is becoming another dead cat. There are transwomen all over sport, most of whom don’t have DSDs, but base their trans status on ‘feelings’ or an insistence that they are ‘in the wrong body’. This phenomenon has sprung up since the trans lobby began saying that TWAW, and screaming ’phobia’ ‘TERF’ and ‘prejudice’ at anyone who disagrees, and of course it gives the advantage to men every time.

As for racism, that really is just personal attack, on the level of name-calling. The fact that CS is black is irrelevant, and dragging race into it shows the desperation of your argument. There are many black sportspeople who are cheered on and celebrated for their talent. There are other cheats* who are not allowed to compete. Race doesn’t come into it.

*At the risk of spending more time on the dead cat, I’ll point out that I’m not saying that CS started out as a cheat. If the only evidence at her birth suggested that CS was female then entering the women’s category may well have been done in good faith. But now that the sports authorities know otherwise, it’s unfortunate, but that shouldn’t continue. People are all at the mercy of their bodies in sport. Illness, injury, age - many things affect the ability to compete at high levels, but other than the formation of the Paralympics to allow the disabled to enjoy competitive sport there is nothing to be done. People retire and become pundits, organise fundraisers, campaign for better awareness of medical conditions and so on. It may not be what they’d rather do, but competitive sport is a harsh world, with one winner per contest- it is not about inclusivity.

It amuses me that people who obviously are not experts think they can be the final judge on what is racism. Many black athletes, many black politicians and leaders have said it is racism. It isn't my opinion it is the opinion of black people, who I think would recognise racism more than you. It isn't my opinion you are rejecting, it is black people's. Which I suppose is its own type of racism.

Rosie51

You do know that Caster rejects the term 'intersex' saying instead she is a different type of woman ? Caster has the condition 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, which if you care to read anything about it is a condition that only affects males. I know you accept males as women which actually makes the word worthless since it doesn't have any definable meaning.

I have never compelled anyone to take any medication at all. If an athlete decides to take medication to enable them to meet the requirements of entry to a specific category that is their choice. Some women take the same medication so as to avoid their menstrual cycles that can severely disrupt training etc and I assume that equally is their choice

Caster Semenya is a side issue, despite your gotcha of "and, lastly, it had considered that the evidence that 46 XY DSD athletes had any actual significant athletic advantage in the 1,500 m and 1 mile races was “sparse” hmm Caster ran and won medals at 800m not those distances. Bit of an own goal there.

You would allow transwomen unfettered access to the female category knowing how disadvantaged the females would be. That is misogyny. Your earlier post One of the ideas being proposed is that the concept of banning transwomen from women's sport is in fact an example of the patriarchal nature of sport and the attitude to women. In that it is cismen who rule the sport and who seek to maintain the idea that women have weaker bodies and are less able to participate.
What rubbish! Who has allowed transwomen and males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency to compete up until now? Those 'cis white males' you so despise. They are now having to recognise the swell of opinion against this, led by women (the female kind) and men who believe in fair play for females like Daley Thompson as opposed to the misogynistic Tom Daley.

When Caster won the silver in the 800 metres she was taking the prescribed medication and has detailed the side effects she suffered.
She was 18 years old when she was first submitted to an intrusive intimate examination and no one prepared her for it. She spent 5 years on medication which her specialist warned her she could only take for a limited time.
She has been systematically abused by the system and she is being abused on GN.
www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/opinion/running-body-semenya.html

As I have said the issue of transwomen is one example of discrimination, Caster Semenya is another. Discrimination never stops at one group of people it always moves on to others.
Trying to justify that discrimination leads to abuse of people.
Did you bother to read the link I posted by the woman who endured years of abuse and body shaming?

My post in reply to Glorianny a phone call delayed my posting.

You do know that Caster rejects the term 'intersex' saying instead she is a different type of woman ? Caster has the condition 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, which if you care to read anything about it is a condition that only affects males. I know you accept males as women which actually makes the word worthless since it doesn't have any definable meaning.

I have never compelled anyone to take any medication at all. If an athlete decides to take medication to enable them to meet the requirements of entry to a specific category that is their choice. Some women take the same medication so as to avoid their menstrual cycles that can severely disrupt training etc and I assume that equally is their choice

Caster Semenya is a side issue, despite your gotcha of "and, lastly, it had considered that the evidence that 46 XY DSD athletes had any actual significant athletic advantage in the 1,500 m and 1 mile races was “sparse” hmm Caster ran and won medals at 800m not those distances. Bit of an own goal there.

You would allow transwomen unfettered access to the female category knowing how disadvantaged the females would be. That is misogyny. Your earlier post One of the ideas being proposed is that the concept of banning transwomen from women's sport is in fact an example of the patriarchal nature of sport and the attitude to women. In that it is cismen who rule the sport and who seek to maintain the idea that women have weaker bodies and are less able to participate.
What rubbish! Who has allowed transwomen and males with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency to compete up until now? Those 'cis white males' you so despise. They are now having to recognise the swell of opinion against this, led by women (the female kind) and men who believe in fair play for females like Daley Thompson as opposed to the misogynistic Tom Daley.

Nobody is ‘targeting’ anyone. Nobody is insisting that anyone takes medication.

Unlike Rosie, I don’t have a scientific background, so I can’t be specific about what CS’s condition involves, but the fact remains that CS is male-bodied, so should not be running against women. CS’s race, lifestyle, genitalia are irrelevant- if CS is male then women’s sport is the wrong category- make-bodied people should compete against men.

In any case this is becoming another dead cat. There are transwomen all over sport, most of whom don’t have DSDs, but base their trans status on ‘feelings’ or an insistence that they are ‘in the wrong body’. This phenomenon has sprung up since the trans lobby began saying that TWAW, and screaming ’phobia’ ‘TERF’ and ‘prejudice’ at anyone who disagrees, and of course it gives the advantage to men every time.

As for racism, that really is just personal attack, on the level of name-calling. The fact that CS is black is irrelevant, and dragging race into it shows the desperation of your argument. There are many black sportspeople who are cheered on and celebrated for their talent. There are other cheats* who are not allowed to compete. Race doesn’t come into it.

*At the risk of spending more time on the dead cat, I’ll point out that I’m not saying that CS started out as a cheat. If the only evidence at her birth suggested that CS was female then entering the women’s category may well have been done in good faith. But now that the sports authorities know otherwise, it’s unfortunate, but that shouldn’t continue. People are all at the mercy of their bodies in sport. Illness, injury, age - many things affect the ability to compete at high levels, but other than the formation of the Paralympics to allow the disabled to enjoy competitive sport there is nothing to be done. People retire and become pundits, organise fundraisers, campaign for better awareness of medical conditions and so on. It may not be what they’d rather do, but competitive sport is a harsh world, with one winner per contest- it is not about inclusivity.

As for the allegation she has gone through puberty. Not necessarily. It depends on the condition she has interactadvocates.org/faq/#:~:text=If%20they%20have%20ovaries%20or,variations%20do%20result%20in%20infertility.

Rosie51

*Glorianny*. Caster Semenya is a ‘woman’ who is biologically male, went through a male puberty and has male levels of testosterone. Caster does not have a vagina, Caster likely has ambiguous external genitalia that somewhat resembles a vulva. As we both know the definition of woman seems to be as fluid as anyone who isn’t one wishes. If a birth certificate can become a work of fiction a judge ( white male?) agreeing to someone meeting “rules for eligibility to be a woman” isn’t exactly compelling . Caster Semenya runs 800m not the 1500m or mile you quote as being of “sparse advantage” to people with the dsd. Nobody forced Caster to take testosterone suppressing medication, it was a choice made in order to be able to compete.

You are misogynistic clearly demonstrated by your comment in your earlier post Well why bother legislating against transwomen then? It’s just unfortunate for those who are beaten. You know that “those who are beaten” will be biological females.

Incidentally I have never ‘misgendered’ Caster, I refrain from using third person pronouns, but I do correctly SEX Caster who has male biology. Are you denying the existence of two and only two sexes. There is no third sex. I assume you are recognising that transwomen have male biology, and went through male puberty with its advantages?

There you are again Rosie51 pedalling mistruths in order to support your misogynistic attitude to Caster Semenya.
She was genitally examined by the athletics authority and judged a woman .https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/sep/17/caster-semenya-sex-test-athletics
She has offered to show her vagina www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/24/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-hbo-interview
But you apparently know she hasn't got one. You know no such thing.
Your prejudice and bias are so unreasonable you have to manufacture information to support them

As for women who want to compete having to take medication which has significant and harmful side effects I really can't believe anyone would insist that happened to any woman.

All this proves is that it isn't only transwomen who are being targetted, many other women are involved.

As I understand it Glorianny, CS is a biological male and saying so is not disrespectful. No one forced him to take hormones, it was a necessary requirement in order for him to compete with and against women, despite the physical advantages that going through male pubity will have given him.

Despite having been asked on numerous occasions, you have yet to provide just one example where a trans man has had the biological advantage when competing against men in sport, so your constant reference to trans men brings nothing to this discussion.

I don't approve of everything every woman does because they are women but there is only one type of woman and that's the woman who is biologically female.

It's very simple to see where trans men fit, they are women 'living as'/identifying as men but they remain women. These exchanges with you remind me of the shape sorting toys I did with my boys when they were little. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole anymore than you can make a man a woman, or a woman a man.

Glorianny. Caster Semenya is a ‘woman’ who is biologically male, went through a male puberty and has male levels of testosterone. Caster does not have a vagina, Caster likely has ambiguous external genitalia that somewhat resembles a vulva. As we both know the definition of woman seems to be as fluid as anyone who isn’t one wishes. If a birth certificate can become a work of fiction a judge ( white male?) agreeing to someone meeting “rules for eligibility to be a woman” isn’t exactly compelling . Caster Semenya runs 800m not the 1500m or mile you quote as being of “sparse advantage” to people with the dsd. Nobody forced Caster to take testosterone suppressing medication, it was a choice made in order to be able to compete.

You are misogynistic clearly demonstrated by your comment in your earlier post Well why bother legislating against transwomen then? It’s just unfortunate for those who are beaten. You know that “those who are beaten” will be biological females.

Incidentally I have never ‘misgendered’ Caster, I refrain from using third person pronouns, but I do correctly SEX Caster who has male biology. Are you denying the existence of two and only two sexes. There is no third sex. I assume you are recognising that transwomen have male biology, and went through male puberty with its advantages?

No Glorianny. Once again you would use any means you can, to deny the rights of females to compete fairly.
No surprise there.
Keep supporting dishonesty in order to win at sport.
Incidentally, if a girl was going to qualify to compete internationally, they would undoubtedly have come across testing for drug tests along with the need for DNA tests as a result if TW cheating, that would undoubtedly come up as drug tests do now for all athletes.
It’s discriminatory of you to imply that competitors from remote villages would be entitled to compete with no testing.

Wow! . That would mean support of lying and cheating males and discrimination.
What next?

I am not suggesting that CS should take medication. I am suggesting that CS should not be allowed to race against women. Very obviously, she has not 'always been a woman' as she is male.

Also, I am perfectly able to say where transmen 'fit'. They are transmen. It's not difficult. Female-bodied, so yes, if they have not taken male hormones the of course they can compete against women. If they have taken hormones then of course they should be disqualified, in line with everyone else.

People who say they are only standing up for women then split those women into ones they approve of and ones they don't

This would only be about 'splitting women into ones of whom we approve and ones of whom we don't' if all the people on the group were, in fact, women. Those who are standing up for women (as opposed to 'saying they are doing so') will say that transwomen and people with particular types of DSD are male-bodied, which is the point.

As we have been saying ad nauseam for years now, it is this sort of twisting of the language that is so dangerous. In the same sentence, you are using the word 'women' in different ways (ie to denote women, and to denote those who say they are women but are actually male-bodied) in order to make others appear hypocritical, whereas the hypocrisy is very clearly with you.

The only 'wrong sort of women' are people who claim to be women for their own advantage, but are actually male-bodied. This is not about discriminating against women, but about protecting women from those who want to eradicate us as a sex class and their supporters, whether those people are male or female.

Smileless2012

It maybe a lost cause with Glorianny GrannySomerset, but thank goodness women have been speaking out against the infiltration of men into so many areas of our lives, including the very language that defines us, simply because they identify as women.

It isn't just about transwomen though is it. It's about discrimination of all kinds. People who say they are only standing up for women then split those women into ones they approve of and ones they don't. They don't approve of Caster Semenya so they call her a man. This is in spite of the fact that a European court judged her as a woman and judged her as being discriminated against.
The evidence for the advantages she is supposed to have is thin. The evidence of the harm the medication she was being forced to take is known.
^the CAS itself had expressed serious concerns about the DSD
Regulations in at least three respects: it had acknowledged that the side-effects of the hormone treatment were “significant”; it had also acknowledged that, even if female athletes carefully
followed the prescribed hormone treatment, they might still be unable to remain in compliance with the DSD Regulations; and, lastly, it had considered that the evidence that 46 XY DSD athletes had any actual significant athletic advantage in the 1,500 m and 1 mile races was “sparse”^
In other words the advantages that CS has been constantly accused of having on this thread are not real. But the problems she suffered when taking medication are real.
It shocks me that anyone should think it acceptable to force another person to take medication with serious side effects. It shocks me even more that those people should pretend they are supporting women and dismiss this case by referring to Caster Semenya as a man. She has always been a woman.

As for transmen who these people think are women that's when things become truly crazy. Quite where transmen fit in they are unable to say. Presumably a DNA test would identify them as female so they would be permitted to enter female competitions.
It is nonsense to say that because I look carefully at what is happening and realise it is more complicated and there is not a simple solution I am misogynistic. Looking at the side effects and questioning how equality could be achieved is important for all women.

Mollygo

Today 13:14 Rosie51

Glorianny If birth certificate sex is used as the regulations in some US states do, then transmen like Mack Beggs and women like Caster Semenya will be competing as women.

Given that our GRA allows for birth certificates to be changed from accurate records to works of fiction, I wholeheartedly agree birth certificates are not the way to go. Biological sex, as determined by DNA from a minimally invasive cheek swab will work every time.
Excellent suggestion Rosie51
Providing the tests are done on the spot and results are ready in minutes. Otherwise those desperate to win by cheating will already be working out ways to circumvent the system, with the same approval as some already give to cheating.

Once again you would punish women born in places where DNA tests are not easily available, who are classed as women at birth,because they have vaginas, forcing them to be classified as men. Really the damage that some would inflict on people, who have been women all their lives, simply because they are born in places which do not have the medical provision to identify them, is horrific.
It is another example of how restrictive and damaging such discrimination can be.

It maybe a lost cause with Glorianny GrannySomerset, but thank goodness women have been speaking out against the infiltration of men into so many areas of our lives, including the very language that defines us, simply because they identify as women.

Yes but repeatedly showing yourself up as a supporter of misogyny, unfairness to females and endorsing male cheating is evidently an agenda to be proud of for some.

I admire the tenacity of those still pointing out to glorianny that which she refuses to hear, but I fear it is a lost cause. Her agenda is obvious.

Today 13:14 Rosie51

Glorianny If birth certificate sex is used as the regulations in some US states do, then transmen like Mack Beggs and women like Caster Semenya will be competing as women.

Given that our GRA allows for birth certificates to be changed from accurate records to works of fiction, I wholeheartedly agree birth certificates are not the way to go. Biological sex, as determined by DNA from a minimally invasive cheek swab will work every time.
Excellent suggestion Rosie51
Providing the tests are done on the spot and results are ready in minutes. Otherwise those desperate to win by cheating will already be working out ways to circumvent the system, with the same approval as some already give to cheating.

Rosie51

Smileless2012

.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.

White intersectional feminists often display a patriarchal, patronising attitude, particularly to black women, whom they seem to consider unable to articulate for themselves.

Considering you have consistently misgendered Caster Semenya I think your view of what constitutes racism is flawed by your prejudice about gender.

Doodledog

And who proposed the idea that disallowing transwomen or other male-bodied athletes to compete against women is patriarchal, please? The source makes an enormous difference to the credibility of statements like this.

You may have missed my post of 12:38:34, but an answer would help me to understand your line of thinking, and maybe save you from further despair at my inability to follow your labyrinthine attempts at justifying the erasure of women in sport.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/07/cisgender-female-athletes-solidarity-trans-athletes

Smileless2012

^.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel^ yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.

White intersectional feminists often display a patriarchal, patronising attitude, particularly to black women, whom they seem to consider unable to articulate for themselves.

Glorianny No as with everything, things don't change overnight. There is no doubt though that women's bodies are changing. The concept of a waist which can be spanned by a man's hands is no longer the ideal. But it was at one time.
If women can now participate in marathons who is to say what future generations will achieve? It's very wrong to think today's standards will always exist, nothing is set in stone.

And this is your basis for denying women fairness now? How many years do you estimate before women's bodies evolve to match mens? Do remember women's bodies will still have to be constructed differently to allow the possible passage of a baby's head through their pelvis

Well why bother legislating against transwomen then? It's just unfortunate for those who are beaten.

Ah, so as long as it's only females that are being denied that's OK with you. Don't you realise one transwoman competitor will potentially negatively impact many, many female competitors? Lance Armstrong was ONE man who cheated dozens of others out of their rightful placements, medals, sponsorships. Do you think that was fair too? I know biology has you confused, but is maths also a mystery?

.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.