What I’ve come to realise about Keir Starmer….

The Unions owns the Labour Party.

That he’s always sitting on his fence 🤣

He may have zero charisma according to some, but Tony Blair had charisma and look what happened. I’m more concerned with honesty and sincerity.

Angela Raynor supports Starmer on this vote
—. Off to read more

perception of anti semitism
Momentum just don’t get it

Greyisnotmycolour- an excellent summary of the last few years. I enjoyed especially your assessment of Mr Johnson as a man who you wouldn't trust to " buy me a newspaper and return the change". I agree with you and if I may, would like to borrow the phrase.

Elegran

International demand could have an influence on policies, though. It could be worth expressing officially what most people are thinking.

Up to a point yes, but if political leaders are being called to account because of the views of their MPs, then it's not an expression of what people are thinking - it's what they are being told to think.

I don't think the dreadful situation in Gaza as something that is about support of one side or the other. I don't know what I would vote if I had to 'support' Israel or Palestine. I support both, but can see that their existential aims are never going to coexist. I wish they would stop killing one another and talk, but that's not a realistic hope, is it?

Anyway, I don't think that who we elect to govern the UK has anything to do with the situation in the Middle East (although the winner will have to deal with the fallout), and nor do I see support or otherwise for the Israeli government as anti-semitism. It's perfectly possible to be critical of the state of Israel and not dislike Jewish people.

Granny23

What do those of you who support him, think of his latest move - Instructing all Labour MPs that if they vote in favour of the SNP's motion calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, they will have the whip withdrawn? His reason? = Labour policy that they never support any motion that is proposed by the SNP.

Personally I think he is between the devil and the deep blue sea because of the perception that Labour harbours anti semitic views.

I think it's appalling, Granny23. I think it will lose him a
a significant number of voters who will view it as indicating a lack of principles. For such a squalid reason, too. I thought that we might be on the verge of an era of grown up politics...

International demand could have an influence on policies, though. It could be worth expressing officially what most people are thinking.

I don't understand how outsiders (ie not Israeli or Palestinian leaders) can call for a ceasefire, or qualify what sort of ceasefire they want. Why would either side observe such a diktat from others?

If only it were so simple - we could call for a ceasefire in Ukraine and tell Putin to wind his neck in.

It's not just comparison to Boris though is it ? Cameron gave us Brexit and then ran away from the consequences. Truss - I don't know where to start, Johnson who I wouldn't rely on to buy me a newspaper & return the change & Sunak who floats by on a cloud of privilege regardless of all that surrounds him. The only decent PM out of the last five was May and she had some dubious policies to answer for. I can't think of one positive thing the Tories have achieved in the last fourteen years. It would be good to remember all their U turns on issues too, HS2, Green policies to name a couple. These were agreed policies that were ditched. Labour has amended their intended plans but they attract far more criticism for it.

What do those of you who support him, think of his latest move - Instructing all Labour MPs that if they vote in favour of the SNP's motion calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, they will have the whip withdrawn? His reason? = Labour policy that they never support any motion that is proposed by the SNP.

Personally I think he is between the devil and the deep blue sea because of the perception that Labour harbours anti semitic views.

After lectures from both you, MOnica and DrWatson, this morning I am withdrawing from the fray.

What Brexit has to do with it, Lord knows, I never mentioned it.

Corbyn, Momentum and red wall seats? No, nothing to do with Brexit at all...

The Labour Party, whatever else it is, remains a party of "ordinary people" and those who consider themselves as ordinary people come in all varieties of backgrounds and all shades of attitudes toward their fellow citizens. These are shown in what they look for in their elected representatives. Their party leader has to reconcile all these strains, and as Prime Minister must also remain true to his/her own vision of what is best for the whole country, including those not of The Party It won't be easy for Starmer, but from his pre-parliamentary history I believe that he has more chance of succeeding at that than any of the Tory Party.

Maizie The party is not over until the last guest goes home. The crucial figure in the next election is going to be turnout. If voter turnout falls below 50%, and I consider that quite possible. No government of any party, or none can claim to be representative of the British People. With no 'none of the above' option on the ballot paper. people are now choosing not to vote as an expression of political commitment.

It is over confidence and assumptions that they will win that have lost party's so many general elections.

Voting decisions are often made, not on the basis of which party people support, but which one they do not want in government and that can lead to surprising results.

As to whether Corbyn is in the Labour party now, is irrelevant, unless, of course, he wasn't a party member when leader of the party. What Brexit has to do with it, Lord knows, I never mentioned it.

For Flappergirl and that (frankly deluded) "To say nothing of the numerous sexual assaults committed this year alone by Tory MP's." (MP's . .what?).

OK - how many MORE times -- ALL parties have their fair share of crooks, perverts, and the incompetent. And that goes back a very long way. [And yet again -- after many voting decades, I can pick holes in ALL parties].

You think Labour MPs are all squeaky clean? Diana Abbott lost the Labour 'whip' in April 23 for some ludicrous tosh about "racism". Nick Brown, suspended Sept 22, and quitting Labour (a former Chief Whip). Bambos Charalambous, suspended last June. Corbyn - out.

Geraint Davies, suspended last June (sexual harassment). Conor McGinn, suspended Dec 22, stated complaints were "entirely unfounded". Left the party last year. Andy McDonald, suspended last year, after making comments at a pro-Palestinian rally (soon after the Hamas massacre). Kate Osamor, suspended in Jan over comments re Israel.

Christina Rees, suspended in Oct 22 re Bullying. Claudia Webbe, convicted of harassment in 2021, suspended by the party, but resisted calls to quit as an MP. Fiona Onasanya, jailed in 2019 for perverting the course of justice. Oh, was somebody singing the praises of Yvette Cooper? She and hubby Ed Balls had to pay back some expenses after they got a bit muddled about which 2nd home they should be claiming for.

What other sources have you been reading, nanna8?

Polling has been pretty consistent over the past year; many tory MPs are not planning to stand again and serious media, like the Financial Times (hardly a left wing hot bed) seem to be making the assumption. By election bombshells? Question Time audiences (picked to represent proportions of 2019 voters) not enthusiastic about tories. 🤔

I don't think we're being delusionary..

From a distance it looks like the next election win is by no means a foregone conclusion. Reading gransnet it seems the Labour Party will romp home but other sources say differently. I feel a move to the right could be in the wind - especially with non compulsory voting. Those extremists will turn out, it is in their DNA. I think it will be close.

It might have escaped your notice, MOnica but Corbyn is no longer in the Labour party and the media is not attacking its leader with the same venom, or making anything of splits. Nor does Brexit need doing.

OTOH, the tories are doing nothing to attract any but rabid right wingers and some tribal voters. Reform is splitting their vote, too. I think they've had it.

So you never noticed the general furore caused by Momentum and Jeremy Corbyn. people from all parts of the country, with vastly different back grounds, and both party allegiance and no interst at all, knew all about it. That was why Labour lost all those seats to the Conservative along the red wall.

O, you may get them back this time, but once a party causes its stalwarts to look critically at it and walk away once, things are never the same again.

I will not feel confident about the result until the votes are counted. I will also not be voting for either of the main political parties.

My biggest fear is another Conservative election win as the party unites and Labour starts infighting as the election approaches.

I don't think that your fear is justified, MOnica. I think that most of the country has had more than enough of the tories and their apparent unconcern about the issues which people are really worried about, e.g. the NHS, the cost of living, sewage discharges...
I think they have upset so many different sectors of society that they can't recover. A show of unity, after so much infighting isn't going to fool many voters, nor, I suspect, will tax cut bribes.

I think you're overthinking Labour's internal differences, too. I don't think most voters particularly know, or care, about them.

Labour were in power for 13 years last time though Monica. I can’t help thinking you’re relating your thoughts to the last 15 years rather than the history of the Labour Party. Historically a strong left happens in opposition, but not so much in government.
I can’t see an uprising of the left having any effect, (much as they would love it to) in the next few years - they don’t have the number of MPs, or the influence now. Of course they will still be there, making plenty of noise - but the key is in not letting the noise influence, surely, and it isn’t doing.
I don’t agree with you regarding the Tories at the moment, they are more openly and loudly factionalised now than any time I can remember - and if they do lose a lot of seats at the next election, the whip will be ineffective. That’s where I sense a sea change.

Agree MOnica , Momentum have started sticking knives in
Starmer

The point I am making Casdon is that factionalism in the Labour party keeps going, even when it causes the party to lose elections. The Conservatives are far better at getting the different groups within that party to work together when an election is looming, so they can present a secure united front.

It is one of the main ways it manages to continue to win elections when not expected to. My biggest fear is another Conservative election win as the party unites and Labour starts infighting as the election approaches.

The Conservatives are having a go but they have along way to go and at least a century in time to match Labour's record.