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Transgender women and an early state pension.

(467 Posts)
Sago Tue 05-Mar-24 10:00:32

Transgender women born between 31 October 1953 and 6 November 1953 may be eligible for State Pension from 31 October 2018 to the date of their 65th birthday.

I’m not sure how I feel about this.

Rosie51 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:06:32

VioletSky

I made a mistake, it was not Mollygo who said it and I apologise for that

However I still think that saying that the actions of a very few "are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans", is the very definition of discrimination.

Because that only happens *if you are happy to allow it to*

Perhaps you can now name who was responsible since you were perfectly happy to accuse and denigrate Mollygo As you've obviously checked back to know you were wrong about Mollygo it will be easy enough.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 16:59:11

I made a mistake, it was not Mollygo who said it and I apologise for that

However I still think that saying that the actions of a very few "are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans", is the very definition of discrimination.

Because that only happens if you are happy to allow it to

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 15:36:00

Just one will do.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 15:02:13

Smileless2012

I have never seen anyone, on any of the numerous threads on this issue refer to the entire trans gender community when expressing their concerns.

I'd ask you to provide evidence VS but it would be a waste of time.

I can get you evidence

How many do you need?

NanKate Thu 07-Mar-24 11:12:58

Well said Doodledog

I had a complaint from a member of my WI who said I had upset ‘some’ of our members by saying how disappointed I was that in a democratic Institute like the WI we were not given a vote on whether to accept transwomen.

I have to add no one put their side of the transgender case, they hid behind the parapet imo.

I told them that up to date 3018 members of the WI had signed the WI Declaration petition asking for a vote on this subject and the National WI have so far ignored our concerns.

The vast majority of transwomen are no threat to women, but the militant ones are of great concern to me.

It seems unfair to men if transwomen get a pension at the same time as natal women.

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 10:54:45

Or one example where anyone hasn't Rosie.

Rosie51 Thu 07-Mar-24 10:41:55

Doodledog 👏👏👏

I would add I have always seen Mollygo use some whenever criticising the behaviour and attitudes of some TRAs and some transwomen. I'd be most surprised if VioletSky can find even one example of where she hasn't.

Galaxy Thu 07-Mar-24 10:36:51

I am referring to men, whether they are trans is of no interest to me. This is I am afraid an issue about men.

Doodledog Thu 07-Mar-24 09:57:06

Agreed, Smileless. I will repeat - the vast vast majority of sex pests and rapists are men, which is why women have private spaces when we are vulnerable. Not all men are rapists (in fact the vast majority are not) but to prevent the ones who are from doing harm, no men were, until recently, allowed in. An odd cleaner or maintenance worker would announce himself in case his presence troubled women using the space. Nobody found this oppressive, discriminatory or hateful. Nobody needed to ‘check genitals’ or any of the other TA tropes - it was a tacit social contract which worked well for centuries. Everyone knew that this was to prevent the baddies from posing as the good guys and doing harm.

Regardless of their ‘feelings’, transwomen are men. Chaps. Lads. Blokes. Call them what you like, but every cell in their bodies is male. Like all the other men, most of them are not sex pests, but (and here’s the important bit) if they are allowed to access female spaces, those spaces are no longer women-only, so how do we know which of the men are the bad guys and which are not? Wearing a dress doesn’t take away superior strength, neutralise testosterone or stop sex offenders from offending. Not wanting men in women’s spaces is not discrimination against transpeople- it is simply wanting to keep women’s spaces safe for women.

I see there are no replies to the questions I asked upthread, incidentally. There never are. People can bluster as much as they like, make snide comments, twist words, make accusations of phobia, but until someone can answer those questions they don’t have a coherent argument for imposing men into women’s spaces.

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 09:00:49

I have never seen anyone, on any of the numerous threads on this issue refer to the entire trans gender community when expressing their concerns.

I'd ask you to provide evidence VS but it would be a waste of time.

Mollygo Thu 07-Mar-24 08:48:19

VioletSky

No one has to lie mollygo

If you can't use a person's chosen pronouns it is very simple to use gender neutral pronouns

But I appreciate that for once you used "some" rather than blaming a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few, that's amazing progress

VS
I’ve never said all trans are responsible for the lies, cheating and violence, though you evidently only see what you want to see.

I’ve said, and I’ll repeat, in case you missed it every time, that TRA and those trans who lie and cheat to the detriment of women (AHF) and are violent towards women (AHF) are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans.

Re pronouns. If I’m talking to anyone, trans or not, I use you.

If I’m talking about anyone I use the correct pronoun for their sex.

If that offends them, or you, they, and you have as much right to be offended as I have to be offended that someone is lying about their sex and even worse, expecting me to perpetuate that lie.

VS, is it only the lie that TW are women (AHF) that is acceptable to for you to hear and repeat or do you accept all lies as being the truth?
I didn’t hear an answer to that question before, and I don’t suppose you’ll answer it this time either.
Now you answering that would be amazing progress.
Sorry, I forgot to add lol

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 07:34:35

No one has to lie mollygo

If you can't use a person's chosen pronouns it is very simple to use gender neutral pronouns

But I appreciate that for once you used "some" rather than blaming a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few, that's amazing progress

Mollygo Wed 06-Mar-24 23:13:17

VS
I think some of the opinions expressed by yourself and others are lacking in personal responsibility
Excellent own goal VS.
But anyone supporting lies and advocating that others should accept the lies and spread them isn’t showing much personal responsibility themselves.

My personal responsibility says that I should continue to reject the lies and violence perpetrated by TRA and the lies cheating and violence by some trans, because they harm females and damage the image of all trans.
If your personal responsibility means you to believe that lying is OK to accept and spread, whatever the circumstances then that’s your choice.

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 22:11:51

Galaxy

It might be worth reflecting on the personal responsibility to society on trying to control speech, or force people to lie. I wonder what research has been done on the impact of such behaviour. My guess is zero, much like the 'research' that backed up all the previous assertions which were later found to be untrue or harmful.

I have addressed this strange notion above and would add...

I have never seen you stand against the actions of others attempting to shut down those with a different opinion to your own

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 22:10:15

Galaxy

Fortunately I am at liberty to discuss anything I like within the guidelines. I know that is very hard for some people to cope with. Nonetheless it remains the reality.

Of course, your individual liberty is not and never will be up for debate. I am just also at liberty to say...

I think some of the opinions expressed by yourself and others are lacking in personal responsibility

Galaxy Wed 06-Mar-24 21:14:13

It might be worth reflecting on the personal responsibility to society on trying to control speech, or force people to lie. I wonder what research has been done on the impact of such behaviour. My guess is zero, much like the 'research' that backed up all the previous assertions which were later found to be untrue or harmful.

Galaxy Wed 06-Mar-24 21:11:03

Fortunately I am at liberty to discuss anything I like within the guidelines. I know that is very hard for some people to cope with. Nonetheless it remains the reality.

Rosie51 Wed 06-Mar-24 20:59:28

VioletSky

Galaxy

You posted one persons experience. I am sorry but I view all of it with extreme caution because of the very serious issues that have been present at every step of the way. Evidence based care is very important.

It's worth listening to actual trans peoples experiences when you want to comment on their lives and are taking risks with their mental health by misgendering them in a public space

I wonder how much attention you paid when Keira Bell was telling her story of transition and then detransition and the awfulness she's endured. She felt deceived that transition would solve her mental health problems, it didn't. Sinead Watson is another detransitioner, who was told transition would solve her problems. It didn't. Their life stories are equally as valid as the one you linked to.

www.persuasion.community/p/keira-bell-my-story

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12366421/The-trans-lobby-pushed-double-masectomy-bitterly-regret-Thats-Costas-advert-dangerous-writes-SINEAD-WATSON-detransitioned-woman-double-mastectomy.html

Unfortunately Sinead's relationship mentioned in the article broke down.

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 20:43:34

This is where I bring up personal responsibility again

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 20:42:24

People who think themselves at liberty to discuss a demographic and decide what is or is not right for them could easily show their compassion and concern by learning of the real experiences of trans people...

I posted one example yet it was either one or both of these 2 things

1. Not enough examples
2. Not fully read

Mollygo Wed 06-Mar-24 20:09:52

Galaxy

There is not a tool you wont use to get people to say the magic words. The misuse of suicide in particular has been one of the most disturbing aspects of this issue.

Smileless2012

No it's not just you Molly it's a conundrum isn't it.
Evidently no response from those who do it.

Smileless2012 Wed 06-Mar-24 19:56:27

Right at the end the article refers to a recognition "that pregnancy as a gender non-conforming trans person may trigger dysphoria" yes that makes sense and was addressed by Molly when she posted If someone whose GD compels them to be a man, decides to get pregnant, going against the dictates of her gender claims, that's almost a self inflicted invitation to have MH problems.

You can be a gender non-conforming trans person and become pregnant, but you have to be a woman. The medical profession can and probably does ask for preferred pronouns, can and as happened this morning refer to pregnant people but should also refer to pregnant women and pregnant trans women.

The use of the term pregnant women should not be eradicated because not all pregnant women wish to be referred too as such.

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 18:45:08

Smileless2012

No it's not just you Molly it's a conundrum isn't it.

Yes it was a trans man's experience Galaxy and made no reference to gender dysphoria, unless I missed it, which I think I'm being accused of being narrow minded and incorrect about.

It was at the end of the article, you didn't miss it, you just didn't read far enough

Galaxy Wed 06-Mar-24 18:40:40

There is not a tool you wont use to get people to say the magic words. The misuse of suicide in particular has been one of the most disturbing aspects of this issue.

Smileless2012 Wed 06-Mar-24 18:37:46

No it's not just you Molly it's a conundrum isn't it.

Yes it was a trans man's experience Galaxy and made no reference to gender dysphoria, unless I missed it, which I think I'm being accused of being narrow minded and incorrect about.