Transgender women and an early state pension.

VioletSky

I would suggest you all look up what discrimination against trans people looks like and feels like

You don't have to discriminate to keep your beliefs. No one does

If you want to walk around saying trans women are men or misgendering people, you just have to be honest about that and say that you are not interested in being accepting to trans people. Some posters here are at least honest about that and I can respect it, in a way... Not much but in a way

Transwoman are male. They would be women if they weren’t. And if you genuinely want to protect women from male sex abuse you would at least try to take on board the reality that allowing males into female spaces is risky- for the gazillionth time, not because transpeople are inherently dangerous, but because males can be dangerous to women, and like it or not, transwomen are male.

You can create a whole vocabulary to erase women and make victims of transwomen - ‘misgendering’, ‘authentic selves’, ‘wrong bodies’ etc. When people are coerced into using that vocabulary it will shape the argument (which is why the trans lobby want it, and why many feminists won’t engage with it) but it won’t change reality. It is impossible to change sex, and sometimes in life we don’t get what we want, however much we stamp our feet.

I would suggest you all look up what discrimination against trans people looks like and feels like

You don't have to discriminate to keep your beliefs. No one does

If you want to walk around saying trans women are men or misgendering people, you just have to be honest about that and say that you are not interested in being accepting to trans people. Some posters here are at least honest about that and I can respect it, in a way... Not much but in a way

I don't need to specify "abusive trans woman" I would never defend anyone abusive, the idea I would not include trans women in that is absolutely absurd

SueDonim

VS said To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

You’re changing the subject, I wasn’t talking about pronouns.

Also, I wasn’t put on this earth to ‘validate’ other people’s choices. I don’t even know what that means, unless it’s agreeing with everything someone says, like claiming they’re Napoleon or the Pope.

Agreed, SD. It is supremely arrogant to suggest that anyone not 'validating one's choices' is somehow discriminatory. I choose to pee in safety, and to choose which men see me naked. I also choose not to be coerced into colluding with the fetishes of AGP men. Why are those choices not validated?

VS said To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

You’re changing the subject, I wasn’t talking about pronouns.

Also, I wasn’t put on this earth to ‘validate’ other people’s choices. I don’t even know what that means, unless it’s agreeing with everything someone says, like claiming they’re Napoleon or the Pope.

Wanting to maintain women's safe spaces, sports etc and the language that is for and defines women, isn't denying trans women's right to be free from discrimination VS.

It's dressed up by some as discrimination if they can't have what they want, regardless of how it impacts on women. That is discrimination.

What are these equal rights that the trans gender community are being denied? I see this claim time and time again on these threads and despite asking this question time and time again, never receive an answer.
I would like to see an answer to this, too. And to remind anyone who might like to engage with my earlier questions that they remain unanswered. They are simple enough:

* How does someone know that they ‘feel like’ a woman when they aren’t one, so don't know what a woman feels like?

* What does ‘living as a woman mean’?

* If a transwomen are intact males, how do they differ from men?

* Why were women’s spaces created in the first place, and what has changed to mean that we no longer need them now?

* What is it about men that means that their wants have to take precedence over the needs of women to have privacy and dignity when we are vulnerable? Why do thes wants also override the religious obligations of some groups of women?

VioletSky

Mollygo I have never and would never defend an abusive person. You have heard me say that many times too

I think this discussion would go better if you were to allow me my own thoughts, not what it suits you to assign to me for whatever reason

Nice wriggle VS. I have never heard you say that you don’t defend the abusive TW or that you support posters who are able to say that they don’t support the abusive TW.


Re your discussion point, I think, that it would be better if you did that too VS.

SueDonim

Violetsky said
For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

Well put SueDonim.

I must have missed all the posts

We need to be able to discuss the fact that transwomen are men.
The answer is no. I will not say the magic words.

Rosie51

There is never a need for a transwoman to use a women only space when there is an alternative mixed sex space available, think Hampstead ponds, but they do. Even in the knowledge that it may prevent some women being able to use that space. I'd call that hostile.

You changed the subject so fast I got whiplash

Well, 3/4 of the 200 that voted, voted to keep allowing trans women as they have for 14 years. Sadly those who wanted to force trans women from the space they had been happily using for quite some time, got very confrontational and discriminatory

There is never a need for a transwoman to use a women only space when there is an alternative mixed sex space available, think Hampstead ponds, but they do. Even in the knowledge that it may prevent some women being able to use that space. I'd call that hostile.

There is never a need to misgender someone, that is deliberate and unnecessary

So compelled lying! What if you just always use the name they go by? It might be torturous language but wouldn't be being complicit in a lie.

Well, for example, in a workplace, refusing to use someone's pronouns is considered harassment and creating a hostile work environment

To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?
Worse than discrimination, I really can't see that. How on earth does using the correct sex pronouns for somebody deny them validity? If someone is confident in who they are why do they need me or anyone else to "validate" them. Do people other than transpeople also need to be validated and if so how do we do that? Compelled speech, forcing someone to deny the evidence of their eyes and lie, that is attempting to invalidate their understanding of the real world.

Those were two separate points Smileless

And that's an easy answer

Denying their right to be from discrimination...

Saying that trans women are men is not denying them their pronouns, it is stating a biological truth. Denying them their pronouns would be to refer to them as he when they want to be referred too as she.

What are these equal rights that the trans gender community are being denied? I see this claim time and time again on these threads and despite asking this question time and time again, never receive an answer.

Mollygo I have never and would never defend an abusive person. You have heard me say that many times too

I think this discussion would go better if you were to allow me my own thoughts, not what it suits you to assign to me for whatever reason

SueDonim

Violetsky said For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

No, I have always said trans women are trans women, I believe the distinction is important in some instances, for example, ensuring that people get the right medical attention

To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

VS
For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces
But Mollygo likes to pretend that is not the case?
How have I done that VS?

So VS, by saying (And I’m quoting what I said above)

VS you agree that:

1. TW cheating to enter female sports, in order to take awards from females is discriminating against women-treating them less fairly (AHF).

And you agree that
2. That ANY TW accessing female safe spaces i.e. spaces where females can be free from male presence, like female domestic abuse shelters is treating women less fairly by making it clear that they don’t feel females should have a safe space.

I claimed that you did believe what I wrote.
Are you now saying you don’t believe those things?

I’m not sure how you work that out.
I say you believe something. Hurray!

You say you’ve always said that but you think I’m saying you don’t believe it?

Next from VS

I hold a firm middle ground here by advocating for women and trans women and that's dangerous as it means I make good points everyone must squash.

Isn’t Everyone a slight exaggeration VS?
And, you can’t have a firm middle ground when one side of the ground is built on a biological untruth.

The difference between what you claim to do and what I claim is that I do not advocate for those TW who act to the detriment of women and whose actions in cheating and lying and offering violence towards women (AHF) would make it impossible.

Now if you were to say outright that you do not support TW who are violent towards females or who cheat and lie to the detriment of females, your middle ground would be firmer and a lot less likely to cause you harm in the way that sitting on the fence of advocating for women and trans will.

Rosie51 I haven't made anything up

I attributed s comment to Mollygo she didn't make and I have apologized

Would you like to actually join the discussion or continue with personal attacks?

Violetsky said For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

However, saying that all trans, trans men or women, have damaged reputations due to the actions of others is not profiling its discrimination. Because it doesn't differentiate between individuals or scenarios.. it doesn't profile or assess risk, it is a blanket statement and a blanket outcome for trans people that ultimately places them at risk in everyday life

But that's not what people are saying. We are saying that the reputations of transpeople have been harmed by those who force their way into female spaces. Not that all transpeople have damaged the reputations of others. There is a huge difference.

As the user of a woman's space, how is someone to tell the difference between an honest transwoman and a predator? And how is a service user to know whether someone calling themselves Sally and using female pronouns is really male, when she makes an appointment for rape counselling in a traumatised state? Or that going to a female-only swimming session as a religious Muslim will mean sharing with males who say they are women?

It is the transwomen who do these things that spoil things for the rest. If they carried on doing whatever they think 'living as a woman' means, but refrained from using 'women only' spaces (and they are relatively few in number) there would be no problem for the majority of people. They could use mixed or male swimming sessions, counsel people on areas other than sexual matters, or retrain as something else, and take clothes home to try them on, or order online and return what doesn't fit. There is almost always a workaround.

FFIW, I don't think you do take a firmly middle ground, VS. On the contrary, however, most others on these threads do do just that. We are at pains to point out that we are not setting out to discriminate against transpeople, but that the actions of some of them make it impossible not to do so - in the way that the actions of some men mean that women needed safe spaces in the first place, so no men are welcome. Otherwise, we are perfectly happy to live and let live. We just want a two way street. That is the middle ground, with those who are actively anti-trans on one side of it, and those who don't care about the rights of women on the other.

I don't feel victimised because I am not welcome in male changing rooms or gents' loos, and I don't know a man who is concerned that he is not welcome in female spaces - they understand that this is for the protection of women, and welcome the precautions that have been in place for years, even though they would never dream of harming anyone themselves.

Finally, when you say that not letting transwomen use female spaces is a blanket statement and a blanket outcome for trans people that ultimately places them at risk in everyday life, are you saying that being vulnerable in male spaces amongst men is risky for transwomen? If so, how can you not see that the same holds true for women if men are in their spaces when they are vulnerable? Or is it that women's needs are less important?

VioletSky

Rosie51

VioletSky instead of lecturing us in an attempt to deflect, if your apology to Mollygo was sincere, and you were genuinely mistaken in attributing posts to her that she had not made you would link to the offending posts made by someone else. All the while you opt to not do that do not be surprised if some posters suspect your motives and truthfulness.

I don't care frankly

It would not change a single thing about the way people behave

So you were deliberately making it up about those posts you were attributing to Mollygo and that's why you cannot link to a single one. Not nice or honest behaviour.

That quote from the great Maya Angelou - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." seems very appropriate.

No, trans people and their allies will never accept discrimination