Would you support National Service?

Doodledog

Not all Tories are older people though. Every generation has people who can think for themselves and are not simply programmed to behave and believe as they do because of their birthdate.

What a shockingly prejudiced remarks to make.

To suggest that you occupy some moral highground and have an intellectual superiority that means that those who think differently to you politically only do so because they have been programmed to do so and not because like you they have thought the matter through and reached a conclusion you do not agree with.

It is on the par with the poster who suggested that those supporting the Conservatives only do so from self-interest, while those voting (labour, presumably) do not is such a ludicrous idea, I cannot believe they thought it through.

The vast majority of people do, and always have, voted for those parties that will best serve their interest. Wasn't the Labour party formed to represent the working classes and pass legislation that benefitted them,don't those who think they fall into this group vote for Labour because Labour policies benefit people like them?

Sago, I agree with your husband, as in most of them wouldn't last a day.
Army instructors have said for years that new recruits, those who were there voluntarily, were unfit, unable to respond to discipline and initially, unwilling to try. Those who did try generally succeeded, so much of it is down to attitude, not ability.
I do believe there is a proportion of lazy, idle, don't-care youth, significantly in the 18-25 age bracket, those not seeking work, education and not suffering illness, and I lay the blame fairly at the parents' door, because they were not prepared to install discipline and a sense of responsibility during their upbringing. Nothing to do with politics, and found in every social strata, as are other families who have overcome very difficult circumstances to ensure a stable upbringing and self-sufficient children.
Covid has provided a wonderful excuse.

I won't argue with that, but it's a different conversation

Doodledog

Not all Tories are older people though. Every generation has people who can think for themselves and are not simply programmed to behave and believe as they do because of their birthdate.

Yes people can think for themselves the problem is the Tories only think about themselves.

Not all Tories are older people though. Every generation has people who can think for themselves and are not simply programmed to behave and believe as they do because of their birthdate.

Well, all those Conservative voters have to come from somewhere. if you are excluding all those committed politically to the left in the 1960s/70s, I mean no one ever changes their mind after being left inclining in their youth! Where else do they come from, except those who signed up to all the outward signs of disaffected youth at the time, which included political views, but were not committed to any of it, and moved with the times.

As far as I know there is not a factory somewhere turning out fully formed Conservative voters and seeding them into the country complete with houses, cars, family, jobs and pensions, and they have got to come from somewhere.

M0nica

doodledog you have missed my point completely, as has Notspaghetti, what I am questioning is to what extent many of those following the 60s band wagon, ever had any real commitment to the political side of things anyway. Oh, yes, there were a significant proportion that did but for many young people the political views were of little interest, sexual freedom, smoking spliffs and verbally espousing causes that really irritated older people was the main aim in life and if that meant spouting political stuff that really annoyed older people, then great, but once the hard facts of life; earning a living, getting a car, buying a house,became more important, the political attitudes were shed with the long hair, spliffs and fancy clothes.

Which is a sweeping generalisation. Which is what I said .

I was a child in the 60s, so am not being defensive on a personal level, but I find anyone telling people how others think, and lumping large numbers of people together annoying. It happens all the time and pits groups against one another.

doodledog you have missed my point completely, as has Notspaghetti, what I am questioning is to what extent many of those following the 60s band wagon, ever had any real commitment to the political side of things anyway. Oh, yes, there were a significant proportion that did but for many young people the political views were of little interest, sexual freedom, smoking spliffs and verbally espousing causes that really irritated older people was the main aim in life and if that meant spouting political stuff that really annoyed older people, then great, but once the hard facts of life; earning a living, getting a car, buying a house,became more important, the political attitudes were shed with the long hair, spliffs and fancy clothes.

JaneJudge

It might be that our men folk never came home and if they did tgry were changed men forever

WW11 men folk not coming home, until years later - in boxes, defines the question for many. RAF pilots in planes downed by flack and others with horrid lifelong "shell shock" are not inducement to national service.

No I would not. I remember it after the last war. It interfered with careers already started and caused considerable upset. However, it suited others who lived in poor family circumstances. Traditionally the services filled up when work opportunities were poor.

No one is perfect but some of us do try and always will.

There is a huge gap between being a normal human being who isn’t perfect but does their best, and a Tory-voting Brexiteer who has sold out out of self-interest! No offence to Tory-voting Brexiteers who also have a right to their points of view, but the saying about changing political allegiance with age is not borne out by my experience at all.

Notspaghetti You prove my point. I was simply (I thought) explaining that some of us still live as much as we can, according to our conscience for the benefit of us all.

My goodness, are you honestly sayinging you have never once in your adult life let a principle slip an inch or two, eaten a vegetable dosed in glyphosphate, not put money in the collection box of a right on charity, missed a demonstrataion because you overslept?

More importantly are you judging others? I am reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican.

Absolutely not. We can't use national service (and the potential to be sent to a war that you do not agree with) as a substitute for proper education and job opportunities. I can think of nothing worse than clean shaven short haired compulsory clones.

I don’t know where to start with the idea that older people are Brexiteers who have given up on their beliefs and principles. I get so tired of sweeping generalisations based on age (young or old). It’s depressing.

M0nica as one of those holier than thou people you are presumably referring to, I wasn't casting aspersions on our troops - who undoubtedly do good works all over the world.

I was simply (I thought) explaining that some of us still live as much as we can, according to our conscience for the benefit of us all.

I admit that we may not have rescued people directly from war zones but we have willingly given our working lives to other kinds of service.

I'm sorry if I've inadvertently upset you. That really wasn't my intention.

It might be that our men folk never came home and if they did tgry were changed men forever

That’s a confrontational post MOnica. What makes you think I have no knowledge of the humanitarian work our armed services do. My personal and working life means I’ve sound knowledge and it rude of you to make sweeping negative judgements about holier than thou people whom have never faced danger.
I chose not to join the military but I’ve been in many high risk situations in the course of my working life, often with the support of police.
I’ve worked with many ex military either as colleagues or sadly, as people very damaged by their military experience and in need of the services available through us

I see no need to polarise this discussion, the op asked an interesting v question which provoked an interesting discussion- or so I thought.

M0nica

What none of you seem to be aware of is that the British army, and other defence forces are frequently sent out to other coutnries to help when disasters occur.

I recommend this link, afma.org.uk/2019/02/21/what-humanitarian-work-does-the-british-army-do/

AFMA is the The Armed Forces Muslim Association

Perhaps all you holier than thou people who, as they tell us have devoted your life to caring and doing good to others would like to tell us about all the times they have put their lives at risk to bring aid to other people in other countries in dangerous and life threatening situations.

As for all you virtuous ex-hippies. I am sure some of you are, but for many long-haired flower power people the 1960s was all about sex and drugs and if that meant sounding a bit alternative, they would go along with it, but you have only to look at the millions of peoplebetween 60-80 who have voted Conservative and for Brexit to know every 60s hippy, or even the majority could not possibly be bien-pensant lefties these days.

Who exactly do you think what you call the ‘bien peasant lefties’ aged over 65 are then Monica -there are quite a lot of us, and I doubt if many were anything other than left leaning hippy types in their youth - perhaps some were Tory voters in their twenties and had an epiphany, but I doubt it.
www.statista.com/statistics/1379439/uk-election-polls-by-age/

Oreo

Glorianny

Whatever happened to the generation that grew their hair long, wore beads, painted flowers on their faces and talked about peace and love? Why would we want our GCs to serve in the armed forces?
Most of them seem far more responsible than I was at their age anyway.

They grew up presumably.
Fine words butter no parsnips as my Nan used to say.

I still live by the same principles that I had in my hippy days. Maybe the only difference is that I now realise that most things in life aren’t black and white but full of grey areas. Both of my children grew up to be peace loving and gentle.

I think national service will be brought back in, in all the European countries that have either like Britain done away with it, or like Denmark, greatly reduced the time and training that it involves.

We will have to be able to defend ourselves, if people like Putin can just march into other countries.

I have no problem with it, as long as it is compulsory for both sexes and not only for young men.

Glorianny

Whatever happened to the generation that grew their hair long, wore beads, painted flowers on their faces and talked about peace and love? Why would we want our GCs to serve in the armed forces?
Most of them seem far more responsible than I was at their age anyway.

They grew up presumably.
Fine words butter no parsnips as my Nan used to say.

Greyduster

I could have written your post, Karma. Both my DH and my son were career servicemen and neither of them thought that National Service would work these days. Young people are not as biddable as they were in the fifties. I know of two cases where the harsh discipline imposed on National Servicemen resulted in a mental health breakdown in one case, and a suicide in the other. We have a seriously under strength standing Army and Lord help us if we are ever faced with needing to provide extra manpower in a military emergency.

I agree with you both.
Spending needs to go up and whoever has been placed in charge of recruiting needs to be sacked.

I don't agree either

What none of you seem to be aware of is that the British army, and other defence forces are frequently sent out to other coutnries to help when disasters occur.

I recommend this link, afma.org.uk/2019/02/21/what-humanitarian-work-does-the-british-army-do/

AFMA is the The Armed Forces Muslim Association

Perhaps all you holier than thou people who, as they tell us have devoted your life to caring and doing good to others would like to tell us about all the times they have put their lives at risk to bring aid to other people in other countries in dangerous and life threatening situations.

As for all you virtuous ex-hippies. I am sure some of you are, but for many long-haired flower power people the 1960s was all about sex and drugs and if that meant sounding a bit alternative, they would go along with it, but you have only to look at the millions of peoplebetween 60-80 who have voted Conservative and for Brexit to know every 60s hippy, or even the majority could not possibly be bien-pensant lefties these days.