Michael Shellenberger: WPATH - 'Possibly the worst medical scandal in history'

Doodledog - quite right to pick me up on the use of the word gender as I absolutely agree with you.

I used the word because when I wrote my post I was ‘channeling’ my relative’s word usage; which ironically I have corrected in the past. 🙄

Thank you for posting about your relative grannyactivist
How traumatic for them, and such a worry for your family

I obviously dont know what interventions they have undergone, but unfortunately I agree with you, they are likely to be non reversible. Even though people wishing to transition, were told hormone treatment was safe and reversible.

It is incomprehensible to me, that people in the medical profession could behave in that way.

That's terrible grannyactivist, I hope that this person will find peace .

TBH I don't understand and with our boys, both born in the early 80's and their friends, never really came across gender stereotyping when they were growing up.

The only time was when my dearest friend's 4 year old son wanted a play kitchen for Christmas. Her husband was horrified so we told him not to be ridiculous and that some of the best chefs in the world are men.

It was purchased and both of our boys and there's had great fun with it.

Doodledog

I really don't want to be picky, as it is easy to trip up over language, but there is no such thing as 'the opposite gender'. Gender is a social construct, and sex is about whether someone is male or female. It is important that the terms are not used interchangeably.

Girls and boys have a lot in common - they are not opposites when it comes to gender. They might all like drawing, reading, music, playing sport, or climbing trees. Or they might not. Gender comes into it when they are taught that pink, or dolls, or dresses are for girls, as is being 'kind', and nurturing, whilst blue and rugby and dungarees are for boys, along with being 'tough' and analytical. They can take those things or leave them - they are not innate, but assigned as characteristics appropriate to their sex in the culture they are part of.

Sex, on the other hand, is in every cell in our body and we have either male or female gametes, meaning that there are two sexes, and they are opposites of one another.

Well Put Doodledog. I was trying to avoid this thread, but I am delighted about the more sensible approach which avoids surgery and drugs at an early age.

I really don't want to be picky, as it is easy to trip up over language, but there is no such thing as 'the opposite gender'. Gender is a social construct, and sex is about whether someone is male or female. It is important that the terms are not used interchangeably.

Girls and boys have a lot in common - they are not opposites when it comes to gender. They might all like drawing, reading, music, playing sport, or climbing trees. Or they might not. Gender comes into it when they are taught that pink, or dolls, or dresses are for girls, as is being 'kind', and nurturing, whilst blue and rugby and dungarees are for boys, along with being 'tough' and analytical. They can take those things or leave them - they are not innate, but assigned as characteristics appropriate to their sex in the culture they are part of.

Sex, on the other hand, is in every cell in our body and we have either male or female gametes, meaning that there are two sexes, and they are opposites of one another.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202403/medium-966574-img-3016.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202403/medium-372313-img-3017.jpeg

Some images from the book, “Grandpa’s Pride”

I forgot to add that the child was dressed very much as the sex it was presented as. Pretty in pink or boyish in blue. At the time I wished they'd done a third option of not stating the sex, dressing the child neutrally and observing what happened.

Elegran that report gives hope for some sanity to return to this issue. I do wish it was featured on the BBC home page rather than just being buried under Health. It is rather big news!

I am so glad to see that people, especially women, are waking up to the harms being done, not only to children, but also to vulnerable adults by this insidious transgender ideology.

Like Namsnanny I have been directly impacted by this issue, although the person in question has subsequently de-transed. An extremely vulnerable person within my wider family was aggressively targeted into embracing the notion that they were of the opposite gender. In spite of a serious, known, mental illness and a learning disability, this person was treated at a gender clinic and the notion of transgender was affirmed and reinforced by social services, the mental health team and a support group. It took years for the penny to drop that a ‘sex change’ is actually not possible and a reversal was then undertaken, but the damage done is lasting and, in my opinion, irreversible.

I know some people who have body dysmorphia. They refer to themselves as transsexual and agree with the biological basis of sex - although they dress and live as the opposite sex to which they were born they acknowledge that their sex is immutable.

It's a great pity that insufficient evidence wasn't required about their safety and effectiveness before they were prescribed to begin with.

It's a step forward so let's hope it's the first of many.

Yes, they learned what would get adult approval, which was the 'right' toys for their sex. I can't help thinking that at least some of the 'dysphoria' we hear of now is based on wanting approval for having preferences that differ from the gender norms forced upon them.

I saw that report, Elegran. It looks encouraging.

I did A level sociology in the 80s, and we spent ages looking at gender and how it was learned through the way people speak to boy and girl babies, and which toys toddlers were given. By the time I had my children in the 90s things were much more equal, but now it seems worse than ever.

I remember seeing a program on this, probably around that time. Various people, some who were childcare professionals, were presented with a young child and told it was either a boy or girl. They were then observed playing with the child. Sex stereotype toys were so often selected by the adult to be given to the child to play with, and a reluctance to present 'wrong sex' toys. The same child was used for both 'sexes' and happily played with 'boy' and 'girl' toys and equally rejected some from either category. The child had preferences that didn't change , but if all a child is encouraged to do is play with stereotypical sexed toys that will reinforce the stereotype.

As for 'girl brains' and 'boy brains' that really is regressing to "don't bother your pretty little head" territory.

16 hours ago - NHS England to stop prescribing puberty blockers.
"Children will no longer routinely be prescribed puberty blockers at gender identity clinics, NHS England has confirmed.
The decision comes after a review found there was "not enough evidence" they are safe or effective.
Puberty blockers, which pause the physical changes of puberty, will now only be available as part of research."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68549091

The idea that there is a male way of thinking and a female one is what feeds the idea of 'gender', and leads to people believing in 'the wrong body'.

I can understand little girls wanting to be boys - not because they have 'male brains', but because boys are (or used to be) given more freedom, and encouraged to do things that most children enjoy, and girls were not. How often do we hear women citing the fact that they enjoyed climbing trees as evidence that they were 'tomboys', for instance? Isn't it just that a lot of children want to play outside, but wearing dresses makes it more difficult, and many parents value(d) 'daintiness' in their daughters and 'toughness' in their sons? Similarly, not all boys enjoy, or are good at, football. This doesn't mean that they are 'in the wrong body', just that they don't enjoy football.

If we can get past the idea that certain likes and dislikes are particular to one sex or the other, children could just be who they are, and with luck, a lot of this nonsense would stop. It is regressive, and IMO the wrong way round. Society is constructed around the idea that men earn money and women look after children. Everything from the tax system to communication styles supports that construct, and children absorb it, too. Boys learn that being assertive and confident get them praise, whereas girls are often criticised for being pushy and 'bossy' when they do the same things. Therefore if a boy isn't confident and dislikes sport, or a girl is fed up with being called pushy and is good at science they can jump to the conclusion that they should have been born in the other sex.

We were moving away from that sort of thinking until the trans lobby reversed it. I did A level sociology in the 80s, and we spent ages looking at gender and how it was learned through the way people speak to boy and girl babies, and which toys toddlers were given. By the time I had my children in the 90s things were much more equal, but now it seems worse than ever.

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/questions/getting-in-touch/send-a-story

If you wish to join their campaign (my links aren't very reliable though🤣)

I see there is a protest movement on Mumsnet, asking why the BBC havent covered the Wpath files.
I think a couple of news papers have had articles, but not headlines.

What on earth is going on?

It seems to me they would rather talk up the none story of PofW photo!

One of the biggest problems about WPATH is it doesn't have a range of experts to draw on.
It has been accepted at face value by our institutions, including our gov. and I've yet to hear anything from the NHS or anybody with regards to how they will cope in the future.

Has anyone else found any discussions or news programs covering this?

Im glad I havent offended you M0nica, and that my apology was unnecessary.🙂

My point, which I accept was clumsily made, was to say some people will always be at either end of the spectrum, in terms of how they express their individuality, character and sexuality
So what are we going to do about that?
I would say accept it, and not insist on a one size fits all, by advocating cutting bits off each other.
Especially as there is literally no scientific understanding, or consensus on what is happening.

But unfortunately, this agenda has been forced on children early in their lives, and when they reach puberty they are likely to feel at odds with themselves and the world (which is normal), and can leave them vulnerable to this ideology.
This concerns me more.

I'm not referring to you personally M0nica

It is not a case of 'effeminate' men or 'masculine' women. I am a perfectly normal heterosexual woman, and throughly enjoy it, but I have alwys found that i am more attuned to the way men think than women.

M0nica

Gossamerbeynon1945 I agree that no one can change sex but I do think that the inevitable range of minds from female to male can exist in bodies of either sex.

For a person whose mind works more like the mind of a person of the opposite sex., even as an adult I have been accused of thinking like a man, this can cause problems.

I look forward to a time when every one can be who they are in the sex they have and do not feel a need to change it to be aaccepted.

In total agreement.

There have always been effeminate men and masculine women.
Some may be homosexual some may not.
What are we supposed to do about it?
Carve them up so they fit some one else's view of them?
Its ridiculously cruel and stupid.

HousePlantQueen

What I cannot understand is how a child can be deemed to have given informed consent to what is fundamentally sterilisation as they will be unable to reproduce, but a grown woman of sound mind who is adamant that she will never want children will be told that she may change her mind and likely be dissuaded from surgery.

The only way I can make sense of it, is to see the advice to women as having been developed when 'do no harm' was the ethos.
The child sterilization etc has come about since the pharmaceutical industry has changed from viewing patients as well, patients, and not as commodities.

To view people and society as a resource to make money off of, is a very callous way to view the world.
But over time, I have come to that as a conclusion. Much to my dismay.

Gossamerbeynon1945 I agree that no one can change sex but I do think that the inevitable range of minds from female to male can exist in bodies of either sex.

For a person whose mind works more like the mind of a person of the opposite sex., even as an adult I have been accused of thinking like a man, this can cause problems.

I look forward to a time when every one can be who they are in the sex they have and do not feel a need to change it to be aaccepted.

Of course Gossametbyon194
But, some prepubecent children can easily be indoctrinated by their gullible indoctrinated teachers, adverts, parents etc.
What can we do about it, is the important next step?

What I cannot understand is how a child can be deemed to have given informed consent to what is fundamentally sterilisation as they will be unable to reproduce, but a grown woman of sound mind who is adamant that she will never want children will be told that she may change her mind and likely be dissuaded from surgery.

No-one can change sex and no-one is born in the wrong body.