Our Welfare State. Is it broken?

Although I want Labour to win the GE the problem will be there to be solved and is a tricky one.

The population is so large now and older people are living a lot longer, all of which puts stress on benefits.A shrinking workforce won’t be able to cope in the future.

Curtaintwitcher

This is another problem which can be traced back to the then government being too lenient. Unmarried mothers were encouraged to keep their babies and given a house and benefits. As a result, many young women deliberately got themselves pregnant. This is the sort of mentality we are dealing with. 'Why should I work when the government will pay me to stay at home?'
Bring back the workhouses. At least the truly destitute will have a roof over their heads and perhaps those who are able to work will do so.

Blimey.
Those girls all needed a male to "get themselves pregnant".

What should become of them as they merrily dance away to father some more children with different girls?

Pammie1

Granmarderby10

Every time I read comments about claiming welfare benefits because of illness, particularly anxiety and depression I come across the same phrases……Something along the lines of “ you’ll feel better if you return to work” / “you’ll be better off if you go back to work” as though there is an actual job there waiting for you.
Am I alone in thinking that in the competitive job market with young, healthy, biddable applicants in steady supply, that someone who has not been to work for decades perhaps, will not manage to get to interview stage let alone be offered a job (necessarily with training) and without actual proper help as apposed to the plastic attempts that countless governments have spent fortunes on.

As Sunak was making his speech on disability and sickness benefit reform the government were quietly cutting the help available to disabled and long term unemployed to get back to work. Remember Remploy and the SRJ workshops ? Closed completely by the Tories a few years ago, and the then minister for the disabled made an announcement that specialist help would be available to find work for those (severely disabled) people who had lost their jobs. I was a benefit adviser at the time and as far as I know not one single ex employee received any extra help and the majority are still unemployed. That’s how much the government actually cares about getting sick and disabled back to work. Anyone who thinks that the looming cuts are about anything but money is deluded.

Well, it’ll be Starmer’s problem to solve in a few short months.

This is another problem which can be traced back to the then government being too lenient. Unmarried mothers were encouraged to keep their babies and given a house and benefits. As a result, many young women deliberately got themselves pregnant. This is the sort of mentality we are dealing with. 'Why should I work when the government will pay me to stay at home?'
Bring back the workhouses. At least the truly destitute will have a roof over their heads and perhaps those who are able to work will do so.

Some people who claim to suffer from depression have no idea what it really is. And some are obviously unwilling to suffer any degree of stress without shouting about their mental health and claiming to be unable to work. I have no time for snowflakes.

Another reason to be wary of making "the right to die" official.

What depressed person, for whom every single day is difficult, needs the added burden of knowing the eyes of society are on them, judging whether they should be at work or are "allowed" not to be?

JenniferEccles

Real depression must be absolutely dreadful and clearly there are some people who are in no fit state to work, but how can it possibly be that the numbers claiming benefits for stress and depression have more than doubled over just three years?

The welfare State is a temporary lifeline for those who are struggling, but it has now ballooned into a huge, unaffordable monster.

Something has to change or those in genuine need will lose out.

The welfare state is meant to be more than a temporary lifeline to anyone permanently too sick or disabled to work. These are the ones in genuine need, but make no mistake, they are also the ones who cost the most to support and they are the ones firmly in the governments’ sights.

Granmarderby10

Every time I read comments about claiming welfare benefits because of illness, particularly anxiety and depression I come across the same phrases……Something along the lines of “ you’ll feel better if you return to work” / “you’ll be better off if you go back to work” as though there is an actual job there waiting for you.
Am I alone in thinking that in the competitive job market with young, healthy, biddable applicants in steady supply, that someone who has not been to work for decades perhaps, will not manage to get to interview stage let alone be offered a job (necessarily with training) and without actual proper help as apposed to the plastic attempts that countless governments have spent fortunes on.

As Sunak was making his speech on disability and sickness benefit reform the government were quietly cutting the help available to disabled and long term unemployed to get back to work. Remember Remploy and the SRJ workshops ? Closed completely by the Tories a few years ago, and the then minister for the disabled made an announcement that specialist help would be available to find work for those (severely disabled) people who had lost their jobs. I was a benefit adviser at the time and as far as I know not one single ex employee received any extra help and the majority are still unemployed. That’s how much the government actually cares about getting sick and disabled back to work. Anyone who thinks that the looming cuts are about anything but money is deluded.

Oreo

Germanshepherdsmum

I had no break from work due to illness and always came clean about my health issues when changing law firms.

Someone who has been out of work ‘for decades’ is I think unlikely to find work much above minimum wage level except in exceptional circumstances. But if you suffer from mental health issues any work is better than just sitting at home living on benefits. Work gets people out of the home, enables them to mix with others and gives self esteem.

I def agree with this.
If it’s at all possible then it’s best for the person and the best for the economy.
Since the pandemic, those saying they are depressed and have MH issues has doubled and they’re no longer part of the workforce.

The numbers of those saying they are depressed/anxious may have doubled, but it doesn’t actually mean they’re no longer part of the workforce. The numbers quoted in Sunaks’ speech referred to the numbers claiming PIP for the condition. PIP is not an out of work benefit.

Grannytomany

Germanshepherdsmum

My own experience is that someone with depression - even severe depression - is much better off working than sitting at home. It should not be a condition which triggers an entitlement to benefits.

It is not a condition which is itself triggers entitlement to benefit.

Someone with depression who is already employed might well find that continuing to make the effort to go to work is helpful but much depends on the degree of the depression and whether there are any associated mental health issues.

Clinical depression (not a severe fed up ness) inevitably affects how someone performs their job. Jobs are so varied in nature I feel that it isn’t reasonable to apply a ‘one solution’ or ‘what worked for me’ to everyone because personal circumstances vary so much.

For anyone without a job, I’ve tended to find that employers aren’t that keen to take on a new employee with a history of clinical depression and/or anxiety.

I think your first sentence sums up the misconception that Sunak seemed to be perpetuating in his statement on benefit reform a couple of weeks ago. He was either ill informed or he was intentionally blurring the lines between sickness and disability benefits. He kept referring to PIP in the same breath as unemployed sick/disabled people and didn’t seem to appreciate that ESA and the ESA element of UC are the out of work sickness benefits and PIP is a universal disability benefit designed to contribute towards the extra cost of disability. As far as I’m concerned, the jury’s out as to whether this was intentional or not.

The Tories are bent on ‘reforming’ PIP. They’ve never liked disability benefits and one of the first things the coalition government did was to abolish DLA and replace it with PIP for working people - for the first time distinguishing working age from the rest of the disabled population. PIP was never meant to support the disabled - it was a cost cutting exercise deliberately designed to narrow the eligibility conditions so that even severely disabled people had trouble qualifying.

PIP was an unmitigated disaster in terms of saving money, and has been ever since. Because the assessment system is so unfair (don’t get me started !!) many disabled people have had to go to expensive tribunal to get the award they deserve, but instead of admitting this, the government have blamed the rise in claims for mental health conditions. Sunak kept referring to anxiety and depression and medicalising everyday problems, and failed to make clear that you can’t claim PIP for anxiety and depression unless it’s severe enough to require second line consultant led treatment. Even then, as with most mental health conditions, it’s very difficult to make a successful claim.

And added to this, it was actually the Coalition government who opened up disability benefits to those with mental health conditions, so the Tories have no one to blame but themselves for not anticipating the rise as a result. The figures the Tories have given are questionable too. Sunak mentioned 3.3m claims, but Mel Stride a few days later quoted 2.6m. I think the 3.3m figure included the numbers still claiming DLA as a legacy benefit because they were subject to the cut off point for migration.

Yes, yes and yes again!!

*ALANaV Why should any of the candidates for LOCAL elections answer questions about the subjects you raise. None of them are within the remit of local councillors, They are all national issues decided by parliament and MPs.

What I would expect them to answer questions about in my constituency is the state of the roads, flooding, waste collection and education at a local level.

Germanshepherdsmum

I had no break from work due to illness and always came clean about my health issues when changing law firms.

Someone who has been out of work ‘for decades’ is I think unlikely to find work much above minimum wage level except in exceptional circumstances. But if you suffer from mental health issues any work is better than just sitting at home living on benefits. Work gets people out of the home, enables them to mix with others and gives self esteem.

I def agree with this.
If it’s at all possible then it’s best for the person and the best for the economy.
Since the pandemic, those saying they are depressed and have MH issues has doubled and they’re no longer part of the workforce.

winterwhite

The notion that the state cannot help people through life's 'ups and downs' may sound very fine, but not from the lips of politicians whose party has been responsible for so much of the 'downs', and the depths of them, for thousands of people.

George Osborne and austerity, together with Brexit lie behind so many of the redundancies that lie behind so much of the poverty.

Lack of investment in education lies behind our low-skilled workforce, and lack of investment in preventive health lies behind so much rumbling low grade ill health.

Truly this government has a nerve.

Personal responsibility, you know parents encouraging their children to go to school, not to encourage them to sit at home doing nothing.
Most of my friends Grandchildren, and mine, were sent to school, no excuses for days off unless ill. Now one taking A levels, one apprentice ship completed, yes under a Tory Gov, doing extremely well , one teacher training, one at Grammar school. Encouragement from parents costs nothing,wanting the best for your child costs nothing. Education is free, many waste their chance, wonder why they become unemployable.

ALANaV

None of the candidates in our local election have bothered to answer my questions on Pension triple lock, social care and the allowance you can keep if you need to pay £6,000 month for care ....is now £23,000 but there is campaign to increase this to £100,000 ....people with NO savings receive care free ...indeed someone just took their local council to Court after they asked the family to pay for their mother's care as her money had run out ...they asked for a Freedom on Information Act declaration ...........no reply, but suddenly they found they did not have to pay ! other residents who had spent any money they had prior to needing care, were being subsidised by those paying ....so unfair ! ANDA there is not one candidate who supports Dignity in Dying ....what is the point in voting !!!!!!

Whilst I agree with you about the unfairness of the social care system (and means-testing in general) not voting will not improve it.

Yes, let's do it!

MissAdventure

A man of impeccable taste, then.
Tapirs are lovely.

I think they're very underrated.

Let's make that our slogan, "tapirs are very underrated".

None of the candidates in our local election have bothered to answer my questions on Pension triple lock, social care and the allowance you can keep if you need to pay £6,000 month for care ....is now £23,000 but there is campaign to increase this to £100,000 ....people with NO savings receive care free ...indeed someone just took their local council to Court after they asked the family to pay for their mother's care as her money had run out ...they asked for a Freedom on Information Act declaration ...........no reply, but suddenly they found they did not have to pay ! other residents who had spent any money they had prior to needing care, were being subsidised by those paying ....so unfair ! ANDA there is not one candidate who supports Dignity in Dying ....what is the point in voting !!!!!!

A man of impeccable taste, then.
Tapirs are lovely.

I think they're very underrated.

Miss Adventure, my late DH always had a penchant for a tapir. He had a fascination with them and we'd periodically visit the local wildlife park to see them. You brought a smile to my face by mentioning them.

Seems it was just you, gsm.
It's a meandering kind of day in the forum, I think.

Some similar threads, and wandery chats.

I have seen people say that their dog has saved their life, in terms of depression.

Of course, during an assessment for the dwp it is used to show that you can look after, plan, and carry out all that is necessary to own a pet.

Whether that's good or bad, I wouldn't know.

For me, I'd love a cat (or a monkey, or tapir) but I worry in case I'm unable to care for it properly.

I thought we were talking about getting a job and the consequent obligation to get up and do it?

What if you live alone with NO such obligations and don’t speak to anyone from one day to the next, and don’t open mail, or answer the phone for the sheer dread of what is in store for you?

Granmarderby10

Oh I so agree GSM, but that is one giant leap. I mean going from being unable to decide whether to get washed, dressed, eat, cook, clean, shop and in what order those should be done let alone whether it even matters to anyone including one’s self, particularly oneself,
to then being “smiley happy customer facing retail assistant” eg

If you have a job to go to you have an obligation to get up, get washed and dressed. Been there, done that. And shopping, cooking and cleaning come after that, so you and any family stay alive.