Awful tragedy

Eloethan

And women worry about trans people.

|I believe the news said the perpetrator had been a soldier.

A terrible tragedy. That poor man has lost all his family in the most horrific circumstances.

I did post earlier that I think the fact that he had been in the Army might be picked up by posters

However, apparengly he barely scraped through his exams and was not a success in the Army, leaving after a short time to become a security guard.

You are more likely to be killed with a gun or crossbow than a knife, which obviously can kill, but more chance of getting away . Obviously crossbows, guns, machetes should be restricted and not be so easily obtainable.

And women worry about trans people.

|I believe the news said the perpetrator had been a soldier.

A terrible tragedy. That poor man has lost all his family in the most horrific circumstances.

grandtanteJE65

Bumface

They know who did it, a man called Kyle Clifford. He is still at large. I hope the police catch him soon.

I can't imagine how horrifying it must have been for the three women.

It must be terrible for John Hunt and his other daughter.

They may know who did it, but as far as I know, until he has been tried and found guilty, his name should not have been released to the press, or printed.

The crime is horrific, but the suspect has still the right not to be named until he has been found guilty by a competent court of law.

That is not true, grandtante

There is guidance which has been issued and Police Forces can choose not to nane a suspect but
The new guidance had suggested that suspects are named only “where the crime is of a serious nature such as rape or murder” or where the incident has already been reported in the media or on social media sites.

It is guidance only.

Of course, posting too much information on social media could be prejudicial to a trial so we should all be mindful of that.

Being a viewer of true crime shows is interesting that many American families of victims of crime are opposed to the death penalty.

In cases where the perpetrator commits suicide they feel that they've escaped justice. They want their day in court.

Also it's such a traumatic procedure for many who have the perpetrator on death row, but the endless appeals drag on, in some cases for decades.

A lovely family who lost their daughter due to a shooting at a liquor store were explaining how they pleaded for life without parole as the family couldn't cope with the trauma. They loved their daughter, desperately missed her but just wanted to be able to live their lives knowing their child's killer was in prison for life.

It's very wrong to suggest that every victim's family want to see the death penalty.

I remember Tim Parry's (Warrington bomb) parents were totally opposed to the death penalty when it was being discussed about their tragedy.

It's not a deterrent either.

This is a terrible crime which, as is ever the case in such circumstances, has raised a number of complex issues.We may never be able to prevent angry, entitled, testosterone fuelled young men ( it is usually, though not exclusively, men) from wreaking devastation on their ex partners and families.However, is there anything we can do as a society to challenge this behaviour at an earlier stage?
It is not so long ago, historically speaking, that anything whatsoever to do with sex could not be discussed in schools.
Could we not address the issue of violence - definitions, causes, effects, judgements, solutions - more effectively than we do now? And in safe, supported environments?

Anniebach

Please look up names of people arrested and imprisoned after the death penalty was abolish , innocent but found guilty ,they could have hanged

The argument will be of course that the death penalty should be reserved only for those where guilt is indisputable. Or even admitted.

But, apart from an admission of guilt, is it ever that black and white, I'm not referencing this current murder as I know we should not really be discussing it, so I'm not.

Restoring capital punishment would inevitably in the fullness of time lead to innocent individuals being executed.

... I understand the reaction, sometimes crimes are so unspeakably awful that you instinctively want the perpetrator dead, I just don't believe that basing any law on that instinct is a good thing.

Please look up names of people arrested and imprisoned after the death penalty was abolish , innocent but found guilty ,they could have hanged

Tiley

Anniebach

I am against the death penalty, is hanging an innocent person acceptable which certainly happened when we did have the desth penalty

For people who commit intentional murder ie like the person we are talking about that went armed with a weapon then yes he should be killed. I hope and pray nothing like this will ever happen to a loved one of yours because God forbid it ever does I think very much you will change your point of view.

I hope and pray nothing like this will ever happen to a loved one of yours because God forbid it ever does I think very much you will change your point of view.

That 'argument' is used frequently... "you wait until it happens to you then you'll feel differently". The implication being that the person saying this is more in sympathy with the victim than the person who is against capital punishment.

Which then closes down the whole argument about the death penalty.

It also doesn't acknowledge those individuals who have themselves been the victims of such crimes and are opposed to the death penalty.

I can understand the gut reaction, I feel it too - it's instinctive, but laws are not made based on such reflexes, for obvious reasons.

You're entitled to your view, but to imply - as your comment does - that those opposed to the death penalty don't understand the full horror of murder because they aren't the victim (always preceded of course with "God forbid it should ever happen to you") is insulting.

Bringing back capital punishment will do nothing to prevent such men from committing these crimes (they not infrequently commit suicide afterwards) - we should be looking at the culture that encourages and even promotes violence against women - witness Andrew Tate and his millions of enthusiastic young male followers - it's misogyny and male-entitlement, male inadequacy, that we should be attacking, not resurrecting a penalty that I don't believe will prevent such horrific crimes.

Not to mention Anniebach's point - that innocent men have been executed in the past.

Why can we control testosterone in young men? We control oestrogen don’t we? And we are rarely violent. When they have committed disgusting crimes like these, they should be chemically castrated. Similar to the “treatment” they gave poor Alan Turin, who ironically almost single handedly saved our country. The rest of society should be protected against these monsters.

Bumface

They know who did it, a man called Kyle Clifford. He is still at large. I hope the police catch him soon.

I can't imagine how horrifying it must have been for the three women.

It must be terrible for John Hunt and his other daughter.

They may know who did it, but as far as I know, until he has been tried and found guilty, his name should not have been released to the press, or printed.

The crime is horrific, but the suspect has still the right not to be named until he has been found guilty by a competent court of law.

I am with you Anniebach I m totally against the death penalty You cannot right a wrong with another wrong killing is killing and wrong on all sides
He needs to be in prison for the rest of his life with NO entertainment at all

TanaMa

As a fairly young man, if he gets a long prison sentence, as has his brother, I begrudge the money it costs to keep them incarcerated. Bring back the death penalty for murder - many thugs murder and walk free again within a few years. Wrong however which way you look at it!!

Over the years I have been in favour of and against the death penalty. If life sentences meant exactly that then I would be against the death penalty. However, life often means a few years then the prisoner cons the Parole Board into thinking they are safe to walk the streets and they are released. There is an increase in this type of crime so clearly there is no deterrent and with the overcrowding in prisons, the death penalty may be the right way to go. Too many times we hear about someone, usually a young woman, who has lost her life to a convicted murderer who is out on licence or been released. It surely has to stop. Imagine losing someone you loved in that way.

An ex-boyfriend of one of the deceased so I'm fairly certain in assuming this was yet another horrifying case of some caveman walking about with a "if I can't have I'll make sure no-one else can!" attitude towards women (whom they appallingly regard as possessions.)

'...And the earth was filled with violence.'

As a fairly young man, if he gets a long prison sentence, as has his brother, I begrudge the money it costs to keep them incarcerated. Bring back the death penalty for murder - many thugs murder and walk free again within a few years. Wrong however which way you look at it!!

Galaxy

That man would have killed those women with or without a crossbow. I have no objection to crossbows needing to be licensed but the issue is violent men.

Exactly. A man like him, hellbent on revenge could have killed them with a kitchen knife, or a wheelbrace. The issue is violent men, not what they use as a weapon.

There are many murders by exes just Google murdered by ex, controlling men can't stand it when they start losing control. Murder suicides too, of partner and/or the children.
So many ask the question, why didn't she just leave hearing about a woman who has been in a violent relationship, but the time round leaving and afterwards is a very dangerous time, many women have to move miles away and basically go into hiding .

In this case, of course, the perpetrator took the weapons to the scene.

JaneJudge

This is also a problem
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theyre-saying-daughters-lives-worth-32015061

Some of the mothers who are campaigning for proper justice fr their daughters were on the television a little while ago.

Reported in that link from January 2024:
The campaign is backed by Labour leader Keir Starmer and Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper.

Ms Cooper said: “Under the Tories, dangerous domestic abuse perpetrators are being let off and victims are being badly let down. This ­catastrophic collapse in prosecutions and convictions, alongside growing delays in the criminal justice system, is putting vulnerable victims at risk. Enough is enough.

“Labour has set out an unprecedented mission to halve violence against women and girls within 10 years.”

Labour MP Jess Phillips said: “We shouldn’t have something in the law that says if you are killed at home with a weapon from your home, that that’s different to being killed with a weapon that has been taken to the scene. It discriminates against domestic murder, as if women’s lives matter less.”

There may be some hope of the law being changed now.

Anniebach All murders are unspeakable surely
I think anyone if pushed to the limit could kill either to protect themselves or their loved ones. There are people who murdered their spouse after being mentally or physically abused for years. Some people murder but are not considered dangerous, like the man who helps his terminally ill spouse on her way at her request. It can be a complex scenario and every case is different.

I can perfectly understand how you feel about the death penalty if you knew Timothy Evans's sister. It was so tragic and shocking for everyone involved, but I can't see that ever happening again. He was hanged on the evidence of one man. Nowadays there would be the killer and victim's DNA all over each other and many more criteria to meet. We have come a long way and learnt a lot since then.

MissAdventure

MissAdventure

www.gransnet.com/forums/chat/1307342-Here-is-a-puzzling-thing?pg=2

This is the discussion I was thinking of.
The one where I was likened to a toddler, always asking why, and told I needed to calm down and stop getting stressed.

I looked up the chat, way before my time on GN and found who made the toddler comment.[surprise]

I will say no more.

The suspect's brother, Bradley Clifford, is currently serving 'life' in prison for murder. A moped with 2 people on it knocked Clifford's wing mirror from his car. He pursued them through the streets eventually knocking the moped over and although one person on it survived, the other died from their injuries. Not content with crashing into their moped but the person who died was kicked and beaten by Clifford as he lay dying on the road. What a charming pair of brothers they are.

JaneJudge

This is also a problem
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theyre-saying-daughters-lives-worth-32015061

That is absolutely appalling. Murder is murder, wherever it is committed, and women, and some men, deserve much better from our Justice system. Although not holding my breath.

This is also a problem
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theyre-saying-daughters-lives-worth-32015061