Awful tragedy

James(born 1847) Thomas, William and John Billington were father and sons who all became hangmen. The suggestion is that their work affected them, ptsd, alcoholism and poor health.
It was said that James wanted to be a hangman, built a gallows in his garden and practiced by hanging dogs.

As MayBee says earlier the death penalty means the need for someone to kill the prisoner.

This just reminded me of someone in my village who was a relative of this woman
Violet Van der Elst (4 January 1882 – 30 April 1966)[1] was a British entrepreneur and campaigner best remembered for her activities against the death penalty.

Biography
She was born Violet Anne Dodge, the daughter of a coal porter and a washerwoman, she herself worked as a scullery maid. In 1903, she married Henry Arthur Nathan, a civil engineer 13 years her senior.[2] She developed cosmetics including Shavex, the first brush-less shaving cream and became a successful businesswoman. After her first husband died on 15 November 1927, she married Jean Julien Romain Van der Elst, a Belgian who had been working for her as a manager but was also a painter.[3]

Having amassed a huge personal fortune she purchased Harlaxton Manor, in Lincolnshire, England in 1937.[4][5] She restored the house, having renamed it Grantham Castle, and had it wired for electricity.[6]

She gained publicity from her vocal campaigns against capital punishment, and stood three times, unsuccessfully, as an independent candidate to be a Member of Parliament. Firstly she fought the Putney constituency at the 1935 general election, coming third. Then she stood for Southwark Central in the 1940 by-election as an independent supporting the National Government, coming third. And lastly, she contested Hornchurch at the 1945 general election, coming fourth.

She lost most of her fortune through "obsessive litigation".[6] She was forced to sell her country house and moved to a flat in Knightsbridge, London, in 1959.

Publications
She wrote the book On the Gallows in 1937 as part of her efforts to eradicate the death penalty.[7] In the same year she published a collection of 13 ghost stories, The Torture Chamber and Other Stories.[8]

Death and legacy
Largely forgotten, she died in Ticehurst House Hospital, a lunatic asylum, in Ticehurst, Sussex, on 30 April 1966, aged 84;[9][10] her wealth reduced to £15,528,[9] having seen the abolition of capital punishment for murder in Britain the previous year.

In the 2005 film Pierrepoint, she is played by Ann Bell.

References
Gattey 1972, pp. 10 and 232
Gattey 1972, p. 13
Gattey 1972, p. 20f
Harlaxton College. "The Manor - Residents and Owners". harlaxton.evansville.edu. Retrieved 4 June 2016.
Harlaxton College. "About Us - History, Facts and Features". harlaxton.evansville.edu. Retrieved 4

anyone seen the 1962 film of 'The Quare Fellow'.
been on talking pictures recently.
with Patrick McGoohan.

Just remember that, if the death penalty is imposed, there has to be someone to actually kill them. My FIL was one such person . Would anyone like to be the person to have to do that? Also I read that, if there is a death penalty, juries are far more likely to find people innocent. I wouldn’t want to be on a jury having to make that decision.

www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/crossbow-triple-murder-suspect-kyle-clifford-is-arrested/ar-BB1pREYz?ocid=BingNewsSerp

I dont think it should make any difference in charging and sentencing, but would be interested what a psyche evaluation revealed.

The website I used for the picture did give both sets of POV.

"Look at the number of people, including a significant number convicted of murder, who have been releases, sometimes, many years later, when it has been proved conclusively that they did not commit the murder they were convicted for committing."

Yes Monica - had those people been given the death sentence, which many would in the States, it would have been appalling.

I don't want to go down the USA route of guns, one of highest rates of prison populations in the world, highest rate of recidivism (yes, have looked it up!) death penalty. On another thread on Timpson different penal systems are being discussed.

If someone plans to kill themself after doing the murder, the death penalty isn't going to be much of a deterrent is it
Somehow the desire to kill overrides everything
A friend was murdered by a neighbour, she didn't run away, she was glad she's done it. Shed blamed her for not being able to sell her house , but how would ending up inside help her sell it, there is no logic.
I do not understand why someone would do such a thing
I sort of get accidentally doing it in a fight but setting out to do it and facing time inside, I just don't get it

Michael Bentley was given a pardon in 1993, He death in 1952 was revenge,
he was restrained by police when the shooting took place, yet he hanged

Galaxy

But we do need to be aware she speaks for herself and not other victims. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, many many families of murder victims are just as vociferous in their desire for the death penalty.
I am against the death penalty and in my view it wont ever be reintroduced here but America for example is a very different culture and holds views on it we may struggle to understand.

But we do need to be aware she speaks for herself and not other victims. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, many many families of murder victims are just as vociferous in their desire for the death penalty.

A valid point Galaxy.

I don't believe the death-penalty will ever be restored here either.

I'm with others on here who hold that a life-sentence for the kinds of horrific crimes that we are talking about has got to be for the remainder of the perpetrator's life.

Prisoners are released on the basis that they've 'paid their debt to society' and are sufficiently rehabilitated to take their place within it again.

Clearly there are crimes where neither of the above two conditions can ever apply.

Emelie321 suggested we as a society might challenge / investigate certain patterns of behaviour at an early age. I'd go along with that. It's not unusual for men (and it is mostly men) to exhibit certain 'traits' from early years. "He was always a bit chippy", "he didn't mix, kept himself to himself", "he never seemed to fit-in", etc, etc. Then there are instances where a man has been dismissed from a position or a job for "inappropriate" behaviour (towards other members of staff) - releasing the individual to continue his 'inappropriate' behaviour elsewhere...

It's contentious I realise - you can't impose on people's right to be "different" from the crowd - and I'm not versed in psychiatry so haven't got a clue how a future deviant might be recognised, but surely there must be ways of recognising the red-flags, so to speak?

The problem of capital punishment is that it is irreversible, and as we well know there are a number of people whose guilt seemed quite unquestionable at the time, but have later been found to be innocent.

Tinothy Evans, doubts about what Michael Bentley meant in the phrase that led to his execution, and those are about 2.

Look at the number of people, including a significant number convicted of murder, who have been releases, sometimes, many years later, when it has been proved conclusively that they did not commit the murder they were convicted for committing.

But we do need to be aware she speaks for herself and not other victims. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, many many families of murder victims are just as vociferous in their desire for the death penalty.
I am against the death penalty and in my view it wont ever be reintroduced here but America for example is a very different culture and holds views on it we may struggle to understand.

The statement written so eloquently by Marietta sums it up. We cannot take lives no matter how bad the crime. The first instinct apart from the enormity of the grief would most likely be revenge. I do think they should not be released for pre meditated murder but work whilst inside to earn partly their keep, if they refuse, no privileges, tv etc. also attend classes to see the results of anti social and violent action.

I don’t agree with the death penalty. Apart from the revenge aspect it’s not a deterrent. When people commit these awful crimes the consequences of their actions aren’t at the forefront of their minds. As for this man I’m of the opinion he should just be allowed to die. The same with others who carry out such acts and then injure themselves.

Seabear I don’t agree with either of your comments. You’re hairsplitting over the OP - it is a tragedy and criticism of the sport commentator is in poor taste. Mr Hunt and his daughter are suffering now and will continue to suffer. Their lives have been shattered. The poor victims’ suffering is over. It is those left behind that need our condolences and support.

Anniebach I agree totally…. killing a killer is the same crime just with a different reason, but both have the same outcome. I don’t believe killing a person can ever be justified
What else …stocks, ducking women, are we not supposed to be a civilised society

Those are beautiful words Wyllow

From a US website, mother of murdered daughter

Innocent people were hanged when we had the death penalty,
arrested, tried in a court of law , found guilty by a jury, sentenced to death b6 a judge. Hanged then found innocent,

I'm definitely in favour of the death penalty for murder that is premeditated and definitely proven, as in this case. Why should someone be then granted parole to continue their life, when the dead person can't ever do the same? Our sentencing in this country is far too lenient imo

HousePlantQueen

Another one here against the death penalty, but I think that in such horrific cases, life should mean life.

While I understand the fury and anger at the dreadful killings, surely these feelings of revenge are not very different from the twisted motive of such murderers?

We also need to ensure that misogynistic morons such as the Tate brothers are no longer given the publicity they get.

While I understand the fury and anger at the dreadful killings, surely these feelings of revenge are not very different from the twisted motive of such murderers?

I thought something similar but decided it was too 'out there' to articulate.

I remember reading a while back about an awful crime committed against a family in the States. On this particular social media site, posters were verbalising the 'justice' they thought should be meted to the perpetrator, in graphic detail where they wanted that individual to suffer a prolonged and painful death under torture.

What type of person do they think would answer an advertisement for that kind of job FGS!

I can understand someone in a red mist of rage on arriving at the scene of an horrific incident exploding with anger and fury and dispensing summary justice, but the idea of a person being employed by the State to be wheeled out to cold-bloodedly abuse someone to death - Jeez, at what point does one abuser become like the other?

We also need to ensure that misogynistic morons such as the Tate brothers are no longer given the publicity they get.

On the other hand, they need to be held accountable for their views which can only be done under the spotlight. I was stunned that Farage thought him an important voice for men who had raised awareness of men becoming feminine and stood up for their ability "to be a bloke". And I make no apology for mentioning Farage's name under this topic, and shame on him for it. No one is stopping blokes from being blokes, we just want to prevent them from feeling they have the right to cat-call and whistle at random women in public like hunters trying to attract their prey, and beating them into submission if they defy the male ego.

Callistemon213

grandtanteJE65

Bumface

They know who did it, a man called Kyle Clifford. He is still at large. I hope the police catch him soon.

I can't imagine how horrifying it must have been for the three women.

It must be terrible for John Hunt and his other daughter.

They may know who did it, but as far as I know, until he has been tried and found guilty, his name should not have been released to the press, or printed.

The crime is horrific, but the suspect has still the right not to be named until he has been found guilty by a competent court of law.

That is not true, grandtante

There is guidance which has been issued and Police Forces can choose not to nane a suspect but
The new guidance had suggested that suspects are named only “where the crime is of a serious nature such as rape or murder” or where the incident has already been reported in the media or on social media sites.

It is guidance only.

Of course, posting too much information on social media could be prejudicial to a trial so we should all be mindful of that.

Also Callistemon213 when the police are quite sure of the identity of the perpetrator of a very serious crime and they want the public's help in finding that person - and to warn them of the danger he / she might present whilst at large, I would imagine they are obliged to name that person.

Clearly, there are cases where there is no doubt about the suspect's involvement and if that person is known, armed and dangerous then it would not be right to conceal their identity.

Another one here against the death penalty, but I think that in such horrific cases, life should mean life.

While I understand the fury and anger at the dreadful killings, surely these feelings of revenge are not very different from the twisted motive of such murderers?

We also need to ensure that misogynistic morons such as the Tate brothers are no longer given the publicity they get.

Precisely JaneJudge. I’ve no problem with trans people. I’ve a big worry about the transactivists who threatened to rape my friend to death with their ‘lady penises’

And women worry about trans people

not true
we worry about men

Emelie321

This is a terrible crime which, as is ever the case in such circumstances, has raised a number of complex issues.We may never be able to prevent angry, entitled, testosterone fuelled young men ( it is usually, though not exclusively, men) from wreaking devastation on their ex partners and families.However, is there anything we can do as a society to challenge this behaviour at an earlier stage?
It is not so long ago, historically speaking, that anything whatsoever to do with sex could not be discussed in schools.
Could we not address the issue of violence - definitions, causes, effects, judgements, solutions - more effectively than we do now? And in safe, supported environments?

This approach is imo better for society generally than the suggestion we re-introduce the death penalty. Of course for murderers like this man , life must mean life.

Found in a cemetery.
Let us hope he goes back there not a moment too soon- but this time in a tiny Urn.