Petition to save the winter fuel payment

mae13 there are plenty of well off pensioners who really don't need the WFP. I know several who own two or more homes, very expensive cars and go on several holidays each year.
They are a world away from those pensioners who are just about coping.

Which is great in theory but less so on the sharp end.

Not only that, but Pension Credit itself is a divisive benefit, as those who qualify get so many other things that someone on a few pounds more (that they've paid for) are denied, and this move compounds that agony

With regard to any system of benefits there will always be those "just over the threshold". But if thresholds were higher to enable a realistic standard of living with agreed criteria for those being raised then the impact is minimal. Again though, this is within the context of paying in for society not purely for self.

I have tried three times to post a reply, but am not used to using my phone to post and keep losing the replies.😡.

Biglouis they are my words, not Primrose’s. I understand your POV, Madgran, but with respect I think it might come from a place of privilege? If you worked for minimum wage in a job you hated, but wanted to do the best you could to rise above the situation so prided yourself on being self-sufficient, you might feel differently if your neighbour got more than you for not working.

At this point, I can guarantee that someone is poised to lecture me on how not everyone can afford to save, which is maddening, as it misses my point. I know!!!

It is the system that makes people resentful, IMO, not meanness of spirit. Someone bumping along, trying to get themselves and their family out of poverty through work and small saving can easily find that it is their savings that drag them back into poverty. Not only that, but the money taken from their wages in tax and NI is given to people who don’t work or save.

I am not saying that those who can’t work should get less (before somebody leaps to that infuriating conclusion). I am saying that a system based on a means-test turns people against each other and ultimately increases poverty, particularly when people can’t live on minimum wage because rents and childcare costs are so high, and they have to rely on benefits to survive. The benefits pay their landlords and nursery owners, and the recipients can’t get out of the situation as every penny they save us deducted from their income. Even gifts from family count against them.

Pay into a pension and the same applies. Of course people resent it. I’m stopping now in case this post goes AWOL too.

AGAA4

What I would prefer to see is the pension threshold being increased so that those who are only a small amount over can benefit from pension credit and get WFA.
Giving all pensioners the fuel payment when many don't need it is a step in the wrong direction.

My word indeed: is there such a thing as a Rich Pensioner? An oxymoron, surely?

People shouldn't have to prove need to get something they've paid for

I dont think they have paid for it in relation to the fuel allowance. They have paid for the type of society we want. That means paying in doesnt automatically mean the right to get back beyond basic societal principles which might be the state pension for instance.

The point is the "anecdotal" stuff is there because people with high incomes are receiving state money that they just do not need to live comfortably. Whilst thresholds remain too low to ensure the less well off can live comfortably

@Primrose53
People who have worked and paid into a small pension are being denied something that those who haven't are getting, so those who have are (understandably IMO) resentful. Not only that, but Pension Credit itself is a divisive benefit, as those who qualify get so many other things that someone on a few pounds more (that they've paid for) are denied, and this move compounds that agony

Excellent post!

The entire system is unfair and corrupt. And thats why I would never snitch on someone making a bit extra in the "black economy" in order to get by.

Have always thought it very wrong that all pensioners get the Fuel Allowance just because ‘it wouldn't be cost-effective to apply a means test’. Now maybe a sensible means test can be applied .

HelterSkelter1

I think we should all wait till the first budget and then see how everything pans out. Knee jerk reaction so far.

I'm inclined to agree with this point of view. I absolutely disagree with means-testing, and I think this is a perfect illustration of why. People who have worked and paid into a small pension are being denied something that those who haven't are getting, so those who have are (understandably IMO) resentful. Not only that, but Pension Credit itself is a divisive benefit, as those who qualify get so many other things that someone on a few pounds more (that they've paid for) are denied, and this move compounds that agony.

Meanwhile, there are countless examples (anecdotal or declared) of people who 'don't need it', or who do need it but don't get it, but no definition of what 'need' means. People shouldn't have to prove need to get something they've paid for, and the idea of 'need' suggests a baseline subsistence level that means-testing will drag everyone down to, whether they have tried to save or not. It creates a race to the bottom.

The PR is terrible, and I'm very surprised at RR for not realising that, and at Keir Starmer for not advising her to wait before bringing this in. I hope they get new advisors sooner rather than later as this does not bode well.

All the same, I would like to see whether the budget has anything in store that will mitigate this. If not, I will happily sign, but I want to give the government a chance to get their feet under the table before working against them. They have a lot of problems to sort out before they can properly get going.

Sorry - that's very fence-sitting, which is not like me, but it's how I feel.

I won’t be signing as I don’t think it will make any difference at all. Too late now.

HelterSkelter1

Yes Madgran77. Not my words but tax is what we pay to live in a civilised society.

Means testing would probably cost as much to process as would be saved.

It possibly would initially but not long term. And I'm not even sure it would when records of who gets pension credits is already in the system! Which is another whole issue regarding joined up data across relevant departments

From the ONS:

‘Economic status

When looking at economic status, the wealthiest households (measured by the median) were those where the head was retired (£489,300). Almost three-quarters of households with a retired head owned their home outright, compared with less than 30% of self-employed and less than 20% of employee-led households. With the highest levels of assets across all components of wealth, lower expenditure and a stable source of primary income, households with a retired head were more likely to better withstand impacts to household finances resulting from the coronavirus (COVID-19’

I can see no justification for paying a universal benefit to the richest section of the population. Of course this is average, and the poorest section of our age group needs to be supported better. To say that the WFA should be a reward for all pensioners is surely wrong though.

*mae13 I'm afraid Rachel Reeves has siezed upon the convenient rhetoric of some lucky pensioners who boast about not needing the Winter Fuel Allowance because they're so well off they're giving it to grandchildren!
Also we have younger people who whine about Rich Baby Boomers.......where are they, might I ask?*

Not necessarily rich but certainly comfortable and able to afford to pay for their own fuel! And yes I'm sure some give it to their grandchildren or whatever! Which just proves the point that they dont need it!

There ARE pensioners who don't need it. The issue though is that the pension credit threshold is too low. The fuel allowance should not go to all pensioners just because some pensioners really need it. It's about income not age!

Yes Madgran77. Not my words but tax is what we pay to live in a civilised society.

Means testing would probably cost as much to process as would be saved.

Same here. And I know millionaires and multis- who get it. I think it should be means tested

I was informed by an acquaintance that her extremely wealthy husband used it every year to get new skiing gear! She thought it was funny! Hmmm!

BevSec

Madgran77, thank you for your reply. My own feeling is that it is a way of rewarding pensioners for paying taxes all our working lives. We pay tax on just about everything we buy, there is not much that is not taxed, we pay tax on money already taxed, all our working lives. RR is hitting on pensioners but then I knew she would.

I understand your point. However I dont think we should be rewarded for paying taxes. In my view we pay taxes to pay for the type of society we want with the facilities we want eg the NHS; schools; libraries; roads etc. (Well aware that standards may not be what we want!) And I think in a caring society our taxes should be used to help those on lower incomes including pensioners. But I do not think anyone should get payments from our taxes just because they are aging.

Perhaps it should be added to the state pension and then at least higher earners will be taxed on it.

Madgran77

BevSec

Veejay, which of us. “Dont obviously need it” please?

Pensioners who have a decent work pension just don't need it. I personally don't need it. I had a good job for which I get a good pension. I also get the old age pension. I should not be paid the fuel allowance. If that allowance was not universal then money would be available to substantially increase the pension credit threshold and ensure those that need it get the
Pension credit added to a higher income and get the fuel allowance as well.

I cant say what the pension credit thresholds should be but I am certain the thresholds should be higher than they are!

Same here. And I know millionaires and multis- who get it. I think it should be means tested.

I'm afraid Rachel Reeves has siezed upon the convenient rhetoric of some lucky pensioners who boast about not needing the Winter Fuel Allowance because they're so well off they're giving it to grandchildren!
Also we have younger people who whine about Rich Baby Boomers.......where are they, might I ask?

Once again it's women, mostly, who are being shafted.

Winter Fuel Allowance gone, next year the Fiscal Drag will see us paying Income Tax, the cap on care home fees is going too and let's not forget which sector of society is expected to step in and fill the gaps in care (I'm specifically thinking of unpaid carers), yes, women again.

Beggars belief.......

Madgran77, thank you for your reply. My own feeling is that it is a way of rewarding pensioners for paying taxes all our working lives. We pay tax on just about everything we buy, there is not much that is not taxed, we pay tax on money already taxed, all our working lives. RR is hitting on pensioners but then I knew she would.

BevSec

Veejay, which of us. “Dont obviously need it” please?

Pensioners who have a decent work pension just don't need it. I personally don't need it. I had a good job for which I get a good pension. I also get the old age pension. I should not be paid the fuel allowance. If that allowance was not universal then money would be available to substantially increase the pension credit threshold and ensure those that need it get the
Pension credit added to a higher income and get the fuel allowance as well.

I cant say what the pension credit thresholds should be but I am certain the thresholds should be higher than they are!

Veejay, which of us. “Dont obviously need it” please?

signed.

I retire this year on just state pension, but due to the "new" pension, it puts me something like £3-4 over the limit to claim pension credit or any other help

Casdon

I don’t think reinstating a universal benefit paid to those who don’t need it as well as to those who do is the answer. I would sign a petition to change the financial threshold for eligibility for pension credit.

So would I! I think the issue is the low threshold for pension credit. That is a separate issue and not a justification for giving substantial sums of money to people who don't need it just because of their age. I hope they cancel the stupid Xmas bonus too!

I think we should all wait till the first budget and then see how everything pans out. Knee jerk reaction so far.