Co parenting

i don't understand the system, but how would going back to court help ?
as well as being horrendously expensive, it seems risky to me, esp from what you say about the narc.
that is their meat and drink, charming people, like a cobra.
nothing will change his attitude.
nothing will make him become a child-centred parent.
these people operate by making everything serve them and their interests.
the atmosphere in their mother's home needs to be as calm and positive as possible, and kind of neutral about their father.
the mother must resist complaining about him in the children's hearing, or even sighing in response.
you and she can concentrate on making the children's lives as stable as possible.
you cannot change the impossible.
all the best.

Thank you everyone. I don’t contact the children at all in his time, sorry if I wasn’t clear on this.

She is keeping records of his behaviour and the school have been supportive having seen his nasty side!

All through the Court hearings no one was very interested in the truth. We are trying to persuade her to apply for a variation of Court Order but she is worried firstly whatever behaviour issues and problems she raises he will produce a case against her as he did this before. A complete fabrication. He is a very charming articulate individual and comes across very plausible to those who don’t know him well. He indeed charmed me for many years until I crossed him then he was vile and vindictive. He is extraordinarily clever at manipulating those around him.

Having spent thousands fighting him in Court my DD is still paying this off after two years, our savings are depleted as well supporting her.

I will try and persuade my daughter to seek counselling to help her.

The most important thing is that we do our best for the children and what is right for them whilst they are in my DD’s care. We cannot control what he does.

Sending a big hug to those that are also going through similar situations. Sometimes just posting and having feedback from others really helps so thank you everyone that came back to me. I’m feeling more positive again

Your daughter definitely needs more help, counselling/therapy, and if she doesn’t do this already would recommend she tries MN, this is a terrible time for her enotionally/mentally and she needs to stay strong. Having you in her corner will be invaluable right now.
The children also need help, they will pick up on everything that is going on, counselling in school was a good idea but what about family counselling? Your ex SIL doesn’t need to be there.
I feel for all of you right now, and don’t worry about rambling posts, when you feel at the end of your tether just come on here and let us know what is happening. Someone will relate to your predicament and others can just be a sympathetic ear.
All the best x

My DD is in exactly the same position with her narcissistic ex. But further down the line. DGD is twelve and decided a few years ago that she didn’t want to stay over at his house (he has remarried and, sadly the new wife is just as bad/worse) and two years ago decided she didn’t want to see him at all. His contact is now by phone a few times a week, down from every day. These conversations are mainly about how much he is suffering because of her and how “disrespectful” she is, and how it looks to other people, how telling that is! She is well aware of his deficiencies as a parent but, I suspect, just hopes he will improve. She is having counselling in school for anxiety so obviously his effects have been far reaching. She’s happy to have the counselling and we just have to hope it will help.
I just wish he would emigrate to the other side of the world, we live in a small town and I dread bumping into him or his family …

It’s all very well talking about going back to court, but the costs are prohibitive, my ex son in law dragged the divorce out for years, eating away at the equity in the family home, he is still refusing to sell it.
Also, from what I can see the courts have no teeth, my daughter has been back and forth, paying barristers, and nothing happens.

Your daughter neds to keep evidence of every exchange with her husband and every threat that he makes. I was involved in a very similar case through school with an ex-husband who was constantly threatening his ex-wife he would gain full custody of the children because she was inadequate. He was furious because she moved back to her parents' home town following the divorce and he could not see them as and when he wanted. Eventually did take his wife to court to claim full custody, the children were asked with whom they wished to live;both said 'mummy' and the joint parenting remained although amended in mother's favour.
The judge told their father he would have been better investing the huge legal costs for his children's future rather than persecuting his wife. Later he had another child and his interest in his first children rapidly declined, causing more damage as they were fond of their step-sibling.

The children will still love their father and retain some loyalty towards him even though they are beginning to dislike his behaviour and wish it would stop. When they stay with him there should be no need for you to contact or see them. All you should do is present a stable, non-judgemental environment where they can escape from the fraught situation between their parents. This situation is unhappily increasingly common as more and more parents divorce but generally it does resolve itself.

My son and his teenage daughter are going through something very similar and I sympathise completely. My granddaughter lives with her father and has only very limited supervised access with her mother but it's all a nightmare . My granddaughter is now refusing to see her mum at all . She loves her mum and in the past has been very defensive about her mum but every time she visits her there is some awful row and gd comes home in tears. Often my son has had to pick her up early. For the last couple of weeks she is saying she doesn't want to see her mum whilst she is being horrible. Her mother has been sending her abusive texts and phone calls. My son hasn't forced her to see her mum but I don't know how he stands legally with this. He has contacted social services but they weren't very helpful. I suppose he needs to go back to court but he is burnt out and broke from the very recent court hearing for custody. I don't understand how a mother can do this to her own child.

you will get more responses to this on MN; have you posted there ?

Granny ivy
I agree with you, and feel your ex son in law is very much like mine, he will do anything to make life difficult for my daughter, again, he is very dependent on his parents, but has no friends, all their friends, are actually her friends.
As you have said, the children feel sorry for him, and to be fair, until they separated, I thought he was a pretty decent father, always mean and controlling, but he had quite mature relationships with them, they share interests.
My grandson has had enough, and doesn’t want to spend any time with him, but the girls stay loyal.

He isolates them from his family and friends and they don’t enjoy family relationships or a circle of friends with him. He says they don’t need anyone else except him.

So there's no-one keeping a weather eye on the children during their time with him.
That sounds like a potentially risky situation.

GrannyIvy if the children don't want to go to him and this is to the extent that your daughter is having to make them she can make an application to the court to consider whether a variation of the existing Child Arrangements Order should be made. Obviously that won't go down well with him but I have twice supported people in this situation in the past. No contact was decided in one case but it was (sadly) pretty extreme.

If it's just a general "moaning and reluctance" then she has to encourage them, unfortunately. As you say, eventually They will realise what he is and the 10 year old already has a good insight

Don't think too hard about his future. He obviously can turn on the charm when he wants to - after all, your daughter loved him once.

If you can encourage your daughter to seek counselling I think it will help her.
Thinking of you.

I am, however still wondering why you are contacting them in "his" time?
I think I really would make myself sit on my hands!

The children don’t want to go to him but strangely as Sar1954 says are loyal to him and love him. I believe he makes them feel guilty. They will realise what he is and the 10 year old already has a good insight and knows mummy provides what they need. It is very hard to watch but will always be there for them.

My DD needs counselling to help her cope with her ex’s behaviour and I think is now just about ready to do this.

As for him I don’t think anyone will want him either!

I don’t expect to see them in his time nor ever want to spend time with him again. Just hard to accept they have to be with him and his weird behaviour and how it will affect them growing up. He isolates them from his family and friends and they don’t enjoy family relationships or a circle of friends with him. He says they don’t need anyone else except him. He only uses his mum and stepfather and they too are very strange and have never had any relationship or wanted it with their grandchildren. They will spend any amount of money to help him but have never wanted to spend time with him, their grandchildren or my DD when she was around. His own father has little or no contact he did want it but my ex sil did not want it. He has a troubled background unfortunately and probably needs counselling to move fwd too….

My advice would be that all communication regarding the children is via email.
Your daughter needs a paper trail.

Why would you think you have the right to see them in his time?

I know you feel it's all very unfair but you say yourself
He has them 40% to her 60%.
...so the courts saw that she should have them most.

I don't understand why you are contacting them when he has them though.

I'm sorry it's so tough.
They will vote with their feet as they get older.

Despite the fact that my ex son in law treats the children dreadfully on his weeks, they are strangely loyal to him, he tells them my daughter has destroyed him, taken everything, left him in poverty, all lies, but they do seem on some level to believe him, and feel sorry for him.
With their own eyes they can see that everything in their lives comes from her, activities, clothes, school trips, outings, he contributes nothing, and yet they can’t really see him for what he is, I guess it’s understandable, he’s their dad, but hard for my daughter

What these narcissistic parents don't seem to understand is that they are slowly destroying their relationships with their children.

A friend and her children were in a similar situation.
As the children reached their teens they simply refused to see their father or go with him, even when he was at the door.
There was nothing he could do about it.

Sadly sometimes the only thing a mum can do is make the most of the time she has with her children, play the long game and wait it out.

I very much understand and sympathise.
My daughter is in the same position, and as far as I can see, co parenting is a terrible solution for the children, thank heavens hers are older, but she has the same problems, the children can’t make plans on his weeks, because he won’t take them anywhere or pick them up, there is only basic food available because he says he can’t afford it, he earns double my daughter’s salary. He constantly rants to them about how awful and useless she is, and they’re walking on eggshells all the time.
I too wish he would just move on, but honestly, I can’t see anyone wanting him.

No personal experience GrannyIvy but have a dear friend in America who is in exactly the same situation with her 3 boys, despite her and her ex having re married.

It's all about control and manipulation with a narcissist, they never change so the only thing your DD can do is change her responses.

I wonder if your DD would benefit from counselling or therapy, to enable her to see her own self worth. This could go a long way into reassuring her that regardless of his threats, there's no way a court would take her parental rights away and give him full custody.

It's taken a few years for our friend to stop dancing to her exes tune; to disregard his threats. He has taken her back to court on more than one occasion over his insistence that she take the eldest to numerous football matches and training sessions, disrupting the time she spends with the other two, and despite him no longer at the age of 13 wanting to spend all of his spare time doing something he no longer wants to do.

The judge never rules in his favour because the courts can't tell her how to spend her time with the boys, but that doesn't stop him.

He was emotionally and occasionally physically abusive during the marriage and like your D for a long time she was afraid of him, but no more.

I'm so sorry that your D and the children are being treated in this way, it must be breaking your heart.

What these narcissistic parents don't seem to understand is that they are slowly destroying their relationships with their children.

Our friends eldest is 13 and we can see that it wont be long before he starts refusing to see his father when he's old enough and his younger brothers will no doubt follow his example.

.