Did she provoke him ?

Some people are very judgemental “stop being her friend” none of you know how the conversation could have continued. She said “was he provoked “ the response should have been “that’s no excuse” she may well have said “no it’s disgusting but I wonder if he will try that as an excuse” not to instantly condemning her as excusing his behaviour.

A lot if the authorities seem useless. My friends sister who was murdered recently had put her abusive son out of her house but when he was released from prison they did not give him anywhere to live so he went home.

You’re right MissA, the police are supposed to be taking stalking more seriously. I don’t know if they do or don’t though.

Our own experience, admittedly in New Zealand, has shown us that the police are slow to take anything seriously. I think we’re a bit better here in the UK but not much. When our daughter was arrested for trying to defend herself, my husband (her father) rang the police in NZ and told them about things our daughter’s partner had done whilst they were still in England. They wrote everything down apparently, but it didn’t make any difference, she was still ordered to stay away from the family home and from her children for a week. He had assaulted her and bruised her all up her arms, but he was protected. I’m not sure it’s different here in the UK judging by the number of girls and women assaulted and even killed every year here.

I'm pretty sure the govt is going to take stalking type crime more seriously.

A lot of times, the stalkers are ex partners, or just someone who has been on just a few dates with the victim.

I had a bit of a row with GCs head teacher. GC had been having trouble with bullying which the school didn't seem interested in. I was doing pick up and witnessed this other child running up and hitting my GC. I went and spoke to the head as he was in the playground. He turned to my GC and said, "Were you annoying him?" I was furious and told him that it was entirely unprovoked but regardless no one has a right to put their hands on anyone because they are being annoying. He blustered a bit and then agreed with me.

The school continued to be useless about the bullying.

I'd dump that flesh crawly so-called ''friend'' fast.

I also find it rather annoying that whenever a man with a family decides to kill his wife and children before killing himself the media report what sound like extenuating circumstances like he was gambling and had lost a lot of money or his business had gone bust, as if any man who hits a bump in the road can kill his family and be forgiven.
The same goes for ‘lone wolves’ men who go into schools or public places and kill innocent people and children, more common in the US, before committing suicide or letting the police do it for them.
In the media it will again be repeated how the perp was a lone Wolf, had no friends, was seen on social media wearing army regalia etc.
If men kill there are no excuses. Billions of men worldwide have difficult lives and mental health problems etc., but they don’t kill innocent people, mainly women.

I sincerely hope that the police have cleaned up their act since the Shana Grice case.

Near where I used to live, in 2016, Shana Grice was murdered by an ex-boyfriend, she was 19. She had reported Michael Lane, age 27, five times in six months. The police had issued her with a fixed penalty fine in March 2016 for wasting police time. When she reported further harassment in July her case was categorised as low risk by the police. Michael Lane had stolen a key and on 25 August 2016, he let himself in, slit Shania's throat and set fire to her bedroom.

I would say to anyone who comes out with 'Why didn't she just leave him?' that, statistically, the most dangerous time is when the abuser is rejected and they often go to extraordinary lengths to track down and 'punish' their victim often resulting in murder.

The main problem with abusive men is that they don't seem to think they are doing anything wrong. Even in our so-called enlightened times, a woman is expected to just put up with it.
I think it all depends on how a man is brought up. It is often said that you can tell how a man has been raised by his attitude towards women.

Many many women are told by their partners who abuse them that they provoked them,a bit like you made me do it.
I’d be inclined to ask the woman if she had provoked her partner and how did he react? Many women walk-in eggshells at home for fear of provoking their partners.

downtoearth thank you for your comments. You’re right, the most dangerous time for the woman is when she leaves the man. That was the most terrible time for us too, as I mentioned up above where the police arrested my daughter for picking up a knife to defend herself from the physical attack he had subjected her to. She was not allowed to return home for a week after that, and the Women’s Refuge (or whatever they’re called in New Zealand) found her a place to go to stay for that week. She was not allowed to see her children either that week. We were beside ourselves over here in England, unable to do anything to help. He had been coercively controlling her for over a decade, and also for four years other things too. He told her that her family didn’t care about her. He dictated when she could see us and when she could see her friends. He belittled her, blamed her for everything, robbed her of everything, her confidence, her family and friends. Now she’s getting a divorce but he’s difficult about that and about the children. He pays for nothing. He told my husband he would ‘financially ruin’ her. New Zealand appears to be years behind the UK. They don’t recognise coercive control because it’s not a crime there. A woman who is assaulted tries to defend herself and the police arrest her.

What happened to your daughter is beyond words. I’m so sorry. I hope you’ve been able to keep your granddaughter and bring her up yourself.

Things are improving, but it’s slow. Coercive control only became law quite recently in this country. I can’t understate the friend of the OP. How can a person ever provoke a beating, rape, or physiological abuse? I say a person because although it’s mainly women, it can be a man. The people that dish out this kind of treatment are bullies.

MissAdventure

That's what happens when people are abused.
They are systematically broken down - all of their opinions, ideas, friendships, as well as the physical side of things.

Then people say "why didn't they just leave"?

Tragic, all of it, and I can't begin to imagine how it must feel to those left behind...

This is almost exactly what I was going to say. My friend's daughter recently plucked up the courage to report the man who had groomed and abused her when she was just a young teenager, and hopefully he will soon receive a prison sentence for it. She has blamed herself for years and it caused her serious mental health issues (self-harm, suicide attempts etc), and it made matters worse when people said 'well why did she let him buy her drink, do this, do that' etc. Blaming the victim is never right. Never.

Murder is never justified.

I do wonder whether , just possibly, there might be something behind the crass remark (other than ignorance or lack of empathy) and whether your friend or a close relative may have put up with some form of abuse herself and suffered in silence. There are a fair number of women, and indeed men, who are treading on eggshells behind closed doors, even in middle class suburbs and go to extremes not to problem their partners.. It doesn't make her remark acceptable but perhaps the better course if action would have been to have called her to account in private and asked her what made her says that remark.

Maddy The most dangerous time for a woman is when she is leaving a violent partner, this happened to my daughter who had escaped from the flat, she went back as her daughter was asleep and didnt want to leave her.
This happened 20 years ago, in the aftermath I volunteered with many groups dealing with DV and attended workshops and courses to find out why it happens.
This helped me to deal with the trauma.
Thankyou all for responding to my post.
I hope any of you or your daughters or sons ,who can also be victims, are safe and well and remain so.

EEJit

There is or should be, nothing that a woman can do that should prevoke violence let alone murder, and I say this as a man.

I have been married twice, violence was nothing to do with the divorce, and i am pround to say I have never shown or used violence to either wife or previous girlfriends.

It's interesting that you use the word "proud" when you say you haven't used violence against a woman. It wouldn't occur to me to feel proud that I hadn't committed a violent offence, or any offence actually.

So, so, sorry downtoearth and maddyfour.

Cateq

It’s awful what people use as justification for their actions. I read the amount of injuries that little girl Sara sharif had at the hands of her father, who claimed he legally punished her for being naughty, but went too far. I wept at the end of the report, but nothing that child did could justify that amount of punishment

Oh Cateq yes, me too. It seemed it was a regular beating, obviously condoned by her stepmother and uncle. Listening to him crying made it worse, just trying to save his own skin. 😢

mae 13 - I do think the police are trying to improve with taking domestic violence & violence against women seriously. Yes, there are bad apples. & the culture can be toxic, but this is taken seriously now & can lead to dismissal. Back in the day, particularly if they were in the Masons / one of the lads, they could get away with it. & the fact that many police are women these days, & often in senior positions, also makes them less intimidating to women reporting abuse. Still a way to go, but I don't think they were coming from some sort of high ground.

She can’t run faster if she’s asleep in bed and he’s her husband!

Very sad that people think that way - .
I always remember when somebody i know said that a woman could avoid rape as " a woman with her skirt up can run faster than a man with his trousers down"
Women can be cruel and in my opinion Cruel and Stupid!

IOMGran

I am afraid after my daughter was half strangled by a boyfriend she was trying to leave I have nothing but contempt for the man that killed and your friend. BTW never expect much help from the police.

I think any woman going to the police these days is in for a disappointment and, horrifyingly, may be putting herself at an even bigger risk.
Never a week goes by, it would seem, that a serving policeman is hauled into court on charges of sexual harrassment or coercion of a female abuse victim they have come into contact with, sometimes accused of accessing confidential details of the victim via the police computer.
There seems to be some kind of "underground army" of police predators, modelled on Wayne Cousins, relishing the opportunity to abuse the authority vested in them. No, unfortunately, male police officers have an exceptionally tarnished image.

That's what happens when people are abused.
They are systematically broken down - all of their opinions, ideas, friendships, as well as the physical side of things.

Then people say "why didn't they just leave"?

Tragic, all of it, and I can't begin to imagine how it must feel to those left behind...

So sorry downtoearth what a tragic end to such a young life.

My first thought was that this was going to be about the little Muslim girl.killed.by her father. Silly of me. My thoughts about that one have been that it was the stepmother driving that situation as the child was very pretty and she wasn't.

downtoearth
I’m so sorry about what happened to your daughter.
It’s true that these men say that their wives/partners are bad mothers.
My daughter’s ex is still trying to prove that my daughter is a bad mother.
She isn’t. But I don’t believe he’s much of a father.