Lucy Letby, Unanswered Questions.

Allira

Good post Ziplok

It is hard to think of a pretty, blonde, blue-eyed English nurse as having psychopathic tendencies but sadly, they do not come with a label round their necks nor do they look like ogres.

That, of course, is the nub of the problem, Lucy Letby looks like everyones perfect daughter or grand daughter. But that is always the case.

Dr Harold Shipman was the perfect family GP, many of his patients spoke highly of him and the care he gave them. It did not stop him killing unknown numbers of his older patients.

If someone looked or acted in a way that had 'psychopathic killer' written all over them, they would, actually, get very little chance of living up to their presentation.

The reason serial killers like Leyby are so successful is because it seems impossible to believe that some one as sweet and innocent looking as her, could possibly have committed the crimes she did, as this thread has shown.

Good post Ziplok

It is hard to think of a pretty, blonde, blue-eyed English nurse as having psychopathic tendencies but sadly, they do not come with a label round their necks nor do they look like ogres.

I read that somewhere as her saying she wanted to experience her first death so she could get it out of the way. But yes it is a bit odd.

I love your username by the way! @JenniferEccles. When I hear that name it makes me hear the wolf whistle after the name (from the song!)

Following one poor baby’s death, Letby’s first words to a colleague who had just come on duty was “You’ll NEVER guess what happened last night “, and, right at the start of her career to another nurse “I can’t wait for my first death”

I have no doubts whatsoever about her guilt.

gentleshores, you’re right it is hard to accept that family members, colleagues or friends can be guilty of terrible crimes. That doesn’t mean that people we have knowledge, trusted, even loved can be capable of shocking crimes.

But then other nurses describe her as cold and a bit odd

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/24/lucy-letby-inquiry-character-missed-opportunities-staff-shortages

So a lot of confusion and contradictions about the whole thing (in my view).

Chaitriona

Ziplok

I feel so sorry for the families of the babies lost by this woman’s actions. Are they ever going to be left alone to grieve - every time these reports about Letby come out and speculation about her possible innocence (which I personally doubt), their wounds must be ripped open.
Those poor babies didn’t kill themselves.

No babies do not kill themselves, but very ill premature babies do die, even with the best of medical care and it seems this unit was struggling with a large increase in cases and inadequate staffing.
I think everyone must feel compassion for the parents. To lose a new born baby at all must be so hard but to believe a nurse entrusted with their care deliberately killed one's baby must be unbearable.
However to be found guilty of killing babies in your care, if you did not do that, must also be the greatest of tortures. And I think most people would feel compassion for any woman in that position.. if this is the case the parents will not have had justice.
Unfortunately we may never know for sure.

I feel so sorry for the mother who had two children die of cot death and was found guilty of their murder and sent to prison. False expert evidence was presented to the jury, claiming that the chances of two babies dying of cot death in the same family was infinitesimally small. But in fact if one child dies in this way , the.chance of a sibling also dying is higher probably because of genetic susceptibility. And this mother's conviction was squashed but too late to save her mental health and she died soon after her release.
Statistics are tricky things. There is virtually no chance that someone will win the lottery but someone does. I don't know if, as ordinary people, we can really understand the science. And juries must be easily misled. It must be very difficult to serve on a jury where children have died.
But we must all endure our fates for good or bad.

Indeed, Chaitriona, I know full well that premature babies do die, but it wasn’t just this struggling unit in which premature babies under her care died. She was in several hospitals in which babies died under similar circumstances when she was on duty there at the time. I’m afraid the evidence, whether circumstantial or not, suggests that it is probable that she had a part to play in the death of these babies. Yes, they were all poorly babies, and sadly, the statistics would suggest some of them would not survive, but all them?
I don’t think you can equate the Letby case with the unfortunate case of the mother and the cot death babies. We now know that it is possible that more than one baby in a family could die from cot death, that there is genetic susceptibility , and that situation was wholly tragic, but in the Letby case most of the babies who died unexpectedly were not related therefore no genetic susceptibility, and they didn’t die from cot death as far as my understanding of events is.

But I did see this as well. A group of nurses who wrote an open letter to the Prime Minister, signed by a lot more nurses (not sure how many) saying the conviction is unsafe. Their letter is here.

www.nineteennurses.com/nurse-s-open-letter

I think what these medical experts are disagreeing with, despite not having seen all the case notes for the trial is statements like that - one of the Doctors saying Lucy Letby must have dislodged the tube and how that doesn't happen with neonates and he'd never seen it before. His testimony on that has been dismissed now apparently as unreliable.

There have been some interesting clips from the Thirlwall enquiry the last couple of days, from senior nurse Managers. One talked about the absolute anguish Lucy Letby was going through week after week over being accused and she said surely she couldn't be that good an actor, to have such anguish and tears and she went through it with her. Another one described how out of all the Doctors on the unit, two were the most disrespectful to the nurses - even senior ones. And those were Dr Brierley and Dr Rajam (can't spell his name).

The first one thought it was a Consultant trying to ruin a nurse's career - because he wouldn't show her any evidence of what he was saying.

It'll be interesting what comes out of it. But it sounds like it must be hard for people who knew her, not knowing what to believe.

I really must stop watching all this stuff now and get on with life.

That is a heart warming story that she is now 18 and a bright uni student :-)

I linked a video about that further back as that is one of the things being discussed. Two eminent neonatologists saying neonatal babies easily dislodge their breathing tubes, all the time - it's a regular occurrence.

I was thinking about babies pulling out their breathing tubes and that some say it is not possible. We had a 27 weeker granddaughter who used to get her breathing tubes out all the time. Thankfully these little babies have one on one nursing care here and she was ‘saved’ over and over again. If that ICU nurse hadn’t been there all the time she would have died. Her heart stopped multiple times. Thankfully she is now an 18 year old very bright uni student.

I'm trying to keep it friendly as people have different opinions and it's a discussion on what's happening at the moment with the situation. But are you saying you do fully comprehend the criminal justice system - are you a lawyer or a Barrister? Have you worked with a Barrister on a criminal case before?

gentleshores

True, these other medical experts haven't seen all the files - which they would maybe like to do - but they may be a more authoritative expert witness than Dr Evans - ultimately the case was all about his opinion on what caused the death of the babies. And that's what has become controversial it seems. Some were even saying some of the things Dr Evans said were laughable - and if you injected air into a baby's stomach, they'd just burp.

I think many of us don't fully understand the criminal justice system.
Clearly.

True, these other medical experts haven't seen all the files - which they would maybe like to do - but they may be a more authoritative expert witness than Dr Evans - ultimately the case was all about his opinion on what caused the death of the babies. And that's what has become controversial it seems. Some were even saying some of the things Dr Evans said were laughable - and if you injected air into a baby's stomach, they'd just burp.

Hypothetical evidence is not the same as forensic evidence by an expert witness who has examined the evidence.

I probably need a break from the whole topic anyway - I'd forgotten about it until more came out recently about the medical evidence. I'm not invested in LL being a miscarriage of justice - just aware that a lot of medical evidence is coming out and a lot of professionals and Doctors saying the medical evidence was wrong.

I think many of us don't fully understand the criminal justice system. But with Barristers - well they usually want to win their case don't they? They are employed by one side or the other to win their case. Some are better than others.

Sally Clarke I had forgotten about her, such suffering

prosecutors are very good at making these arguments ……..

what the lawyer on Reddit said about experts if technically correct, but that is the same for defence and prosecution , although technically expert witnesses have a duty to the court, the prosecution and defence select witnesses who will argue their case. So they are not entirely neutral. I just read that somewhere today from a lawyer

I do not mean to be rude or patronising gentleshores, I recognise your investment in LL being the victim of a miscarriage of justice (despite your insistence on neutrality)
My impression is you have a limited knowledge or understanding of how our criminal courts work, I don’t claim no mistakes are made, I do say a mistake in a case of this magnitude seems unlikely. It has been forensically investigated and reviewed.
Of course prosecutors are ‘very good at making arguments’. So is the defence team. KC and other barristers/solicitors act for both prosecution and defence in numerous trials. Fairness, arguing for the prosecution in one case, the defence in another really does help these experienced, generally authentic genuine believers in the right to a fair trial .

It wasn't a unanimous jury decision and the jury found based on what they were told. If what they were told was incorrect or misleading then that's why some people are saying there needs to be a retrial.

Sally Clark (cot death Mother) was released from prison after three years when microbiological reports were found to have not been disclosed to the court (or to the jury) that showed the babies died of natural causes.

But her experience caused her severe psychiatric problems and she died of alcohol poisoning.

If there is a slight chance it's been a miscarriage of justice - it really needs sorting out.

There is a lot of medical evidence coming out that counteracts what was suggested in court.

🤔
The verdict was beyond reasonable doubt.

Like many I am interested in justice for those families but I dislike justice with any reasonable doubt.

I hope that the experts will work together at some point to resolve it

It has been resolved with a long court case and a decision.

The people suffering with PTSD are, I would, think, the poor bereaved parents of murdered babies.

This is possibly the most interesting discussion I have ever seen.

We can't judge someone on opinion though, expert or otherwise, so it's very tricky for me to understand what is concrete proof and what isn't.

I hope that the experts will work together at some point to resolve it

So I swing really. That she might be a murderer. But there are doubts over the medical expert opinion that convicted her.

And how awful to be innocent and be accused of this and incarcerated in jail for life.

The police got a conviction but I hope they get to the truth of the matter soon and something comes up that definitively decides it. But it probably won't.

There are experts on both sides as well.

JenniferEccles

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but I read that the person doing Letby’s final assessment at the end of her training, failed her as she found her very cold, and therefore unsuited to nursing.

She was later re-assessed by a different person who passed her, but the first comment about her coldness has always stuck in my mind.

No I don't know :-) I'm just citing all the medical experts coming forwards who are casting doubt over the trial - just to show there are people with doubts. Some of those arguments are quite compelling. And it could be that they just looked for a murderer rather than looking into conditions and failures at the hospital. But I have no idea whether she's innocent or guilty. It could be either! But if the trial was incorrect or unfair there should be a retrial.

@JennniferEccles - yes I just saw that yesterday as well and it adds to the idea that she wasn't suited to nursing and didn't have the right personality for it. So that lends doubt the other way again :-) Lack of empathy maybe.

Lots of things where people try to analyse her - I've seen some say she might be autistic (which would explain lack of empathy).

The thing that really annoyed me though is the female presenter from the Panorama programme (who clearly believes she is guilty) who is promoting her book all over the place - and making money out of it. Obviously she couldn't have doubts now if she's just written a book about how guilty she is. She was interviewed on Loose Women the other day and was talking about Lucy Letby's demeanour in court as being the reason she decided she was guilty.

But her demeanour was bound to be affected after 2 or 3 years in prison with allegations hanging over her and she was apparently on anti depressants as well which could have affected how she responded. Her Barrister told the Judge at the start she could hardly speak and had been diagnosed with PTSD.

I think there are arguments for both - whether she's guilty or a victim of people barking up the wrong tree and trying to find a murderer rather than look at the hospital itself and what went wrong.

If you imagine - if she is innocent - she would have PTSD wouldn't she?