This scares me about Putin.

Russia won’t just roll over and accept defeat. It never has done and never will do. Ukraine will demand more and more assistance, a bit of a stalemate. I am hoping Trump might make some sort of agreement with them and stop the escalation. Whether he wants to do that or is even capable of it remains to be seen. I believe there is more hope for a sort of peace under him than there ever was under Biden.

Prior to 2014 Russia was becoming very western, travel was relaxed, many western countries were opening retail outlets and there was a lot of export from Europe as well as imports of resources, to mutual benefit. The changes that Ukraine wanted started a chain of events that saw Russia pushed close to China ultimately the war and restriction of energy that damaged every economy in Europe. In fact it’s probably damaged Europe more than Russia despite the propaganda we get.

If the EU and NATO had told Ukraine NO it is not in our interest for you to join, but of course the power mongers in both camps thought Russia would back down.

That is my standpoint, some other opinions on this forum think that Russia should be driven out of Ukraine, maybe the full weight of NATO could do that but Russia will fight and it could risk nuclear war. I do not believe escalating the war will be worth the cost, end it now accept the loss and rebuild Ukraine with secure borders.

The US is the key, a strip of land in Eastern Europe is a long way from their homeland, the risk and cost far outweighs any benefit they would gain. There are far too many divisions in Europe to support Ukraine continuing the fighting.

At the outset Putin stated that he wanted to stop the loss of life caused by fighting in the disputed territories and that he was looking for a resolution. I can’t remember the numbers Putin quoted but 14000 deaths stick in my memory. Putin’s special military operation was meant to be short and decisive or something like that. However now that the conflict has resulted in even more deaths than Putin was meant to prevent, allegedly, I wonder how that sits with Putin now? I do realise that was a public relations exercise but it isn’t delivering any real results. More of the same seems pointless.

Russia has always had issues with Ukraine and vice versa. It goes back beyond the Soviet Union.

Putin sees it as his policy to restore the old Soviet territories but he hasn't kept up with the times.

There is an old saying that if you want to get on with your neighbours build a fence. Conflict starts when there is disagreement about where the fence will be.

There is no neutrality for Russia- it seeks to gain territory that is not theirs- how difficult is that for you to understand.

You seem to be saying that Mr P moved into a house with a very clear boundary between him and his neighbour. However, Mr P thought that his neighbour might want to take away some of his garden so he decided to take some of his neighbour's garden in order to make sure his neighbour didn't take over his. Mr P was clearly deluded and paranoid, wasn't he?

This is my last comment on this issue.

keepingquiet

Sorry Iam64- I was aiming the question at David and should have said so.

I am getting tired of the 'I blame NATO' brigade. It is such a bad argument I don't even know why I've responded to it. I guess it is because we still have free speech here, unlike in Putin's Russia.

Looking at the issue from Putins point of view it’s fear of what might happen, we are all the same, if you have unpleasant neighbours you move if you can. If a new housing estate is planned closeby you oppose it,

To avoid the death and destruction Ukraine could have agreed to stay neutral, the Ukrainian and Russian population would both have been much happier, not to mention the economic damage done to the rest of Europe. Or is someone going to claim that Ukraine remaining neutral was a worse choice.

There is a fundamental difference between NATO wanting Ukraine as a member, and Ukraine wanting to join NATO. Putin chooses to blur the issue.

When Putin dies, the problem of Russia will continue.

Thanks keeping quiet. I’m with you on being tired of blame being pushed onto NATO or Ukraine. Putin is the threat, nit them

Sorry Iam64- I was aiming the question at David and should have said so.

I am getting tired of the 'I blame NATO' brigade. It is such a bad argument I don't even know why I've responded to it. I guess it is because we still have free speech here, unlike in Putin's Russia.

Are you speaking to me or `David?/. I’d have thought it’s obvious I dont blame Ukraine

So you blame Ukraine for wanting to join NATO and Putin got jealous?

Putin wants to rule over the old Soviet Union. It annexed Crimea, Ukraine like other states bordering Russia felt threatened. Joining NATO seemed like a good plan. Putin really didn’t like it, invaded Ukraine and Ukraine fought back

I don’t want ww3 either. How do you stop a mad despot - not by appeasement

Ukraine wanted to join NATO so Russia annexed Crimea not willing to hand it over to NATO. It all escalated from there.
Russia is afraid of NATO it cannot match it in conventional arms, Ukraine proved how weak they are so Putin is paranoid.

Afghanistan, polititians don’t learn from history UK had 3 Afghan wars, won the first, paid them off on the second, lost the third. Russia lost their Afghan war too, as for the US and UK, you cant fight religious extremists with one hand tied behind your back so we lost again.

I don't see it the same way.

Iraq was a vanity project by the US- Bush jr finishing off what Bush sr started as an act of aggression by Iraq invading Kuwait.

Afghanistan? No one learns from history there but you cn trace it back to British Imperial interests, added to by the US fear of the incursions from Soviet times and a fear of communism. The US trained and supplied the very people who eventually turned against them.

I don't understand how NATO expanded into Ukraine though- could you please explain how this happened? I thought it was the Russians who invaded, or am I stupid?

keepingquiet

Ukraine is a democracy unlike Russia which 'pretends' to be one but has no real experience of how democracies work.

Ukraine voted to de-commision its nuclear weapons- how can that be aggressive?

Ukraine could see what was going on in Donbass with Putin encouraging Russian settlelement in order to justify 'saving' them.

Ukraine looks west because it sees us as strong supporters of its democracy.

Ukraine was invaded by Russia.

Yes democracy is important to us, so we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, that went well didnt it, as with Ukraine the population are much worse off now.

Aggression, it was NATO expanding into Ukraine that Russia didn’t like.

Ukraine is a democracy unlike Russia which 'pretends' to be one but has no real experience of how democracies work.

Ukraine voted to de-commision its nuclear weapons- how can that be aggressive?

Ukraine could see what was going on in Donbass with Putin encouraging Russian settlelement in order to justify 'saving' them.

Ukraine looks west because it sees us as strong supporters of its democracy.

Ukraine was invaded by Russia.

No David49I don’t think Crimea is not important to Russia. I think Crimea is essential.
I agree that we need to stay out of other countries and cultures but unfortunately Boris Johnson as our leader gave false hope to Ukraine. We are equally dispossessed here in connection between government and the people.

ronib

In what way could the EU and NATO block Russian access to ports? Why would they do this? Has the EU and NATO blocked access to ports in other countries? I can see why Russia needs to protect itself therefore.

You are saying that Crimea was/is not important to Russia, you are wrong.

One thing the war has proved is how weak Russia was, they should have rolled over Ukraine in a few days, NATO combined has many times the capability, if it chooses to use it.
The EU and NATO are trying to expand into Georgia now that will probably end up in a war too, it’s being done in the name of freedom.
Freedom from the tyranny of Sadam Hussein set the whole Middle East on fire, can we really say that was a good outcome all the population got was war and destruction, they still are run by one kind of dictatorship or another. As a bonus we got a massive migrant problem that still has to be resolved.

We should stop interfering in other countries and cultures, it’s a weird logic that the EU and NATO expanding into Ukraine is seen a Russia’s expansion.

petra soaring food prices in Russia, poor quality items for sale, exodus of young Russians - leaders and government irrelevant? Putin carefully televises to the Russian people and stage manages government. Getting on with our lives happens everywhere, Russia is no exception.

I read that various the Baltic states as well as Finland and Sweden amongst others, are sending out pamphlets to their populations advising them what to do in the event of attack from Russia.

I find that very unsettling.

ronib

Monica my impression is that Putin has a different relationship with the Russian people than we experience here. I don’t know but it seems likely that Putin is very good at convincing his people that he has their interests at heart. Alternatively there is no way that opposition is voiced in what is essentially a totalitarian state.

ronib
This one post highlights your naive view of Russia and Putin.
There is no relationship between Putin and the people.
I know it’s a different country but I lived in Bulgaria for 5 years and we owned a holiday rental in Transylvania.
The majority of people we mixed with grew up under the communist cosh.
They viewed their now government exactly as they did when Russia ruled them.
Their leaders and government are totally irrelevant. They just get on with their lives.

David49 we must agree to differ.

In what way could the EU and NATO block Russian access to ports? Why would they do this? Has the EU and NATO blocked access to ports in other countries? I can see why Russia needs to protect itself therefore.

M0nica

David49 I recommend that you listen to yesterday's R4 programme The Briefing Room. IT was devoted to discussing the ar in Ukraine and the way it has been conducted and why - and the economics of it.

It saw things very differently to you It is too complicated to summarise on GN, but they were consilting economic and security experts.

The big cost to Europe is energy prices and shortages, that is affecting every one of us, we tighten our belts and carry on it’s not going to bankrupt us, the big risk is Russia targeting infrastructure outside of Ukraine, including ours.

Energy prices have fallen back from their high point, cheap energy we can forget because the big producers in OPEC will reduce production to maintain prices. If the war escalates prices will increase for sure.

“But remember thet the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine was Putin's desire to rebuild Greater Russia. All this stuff about the threat of NATO and the other reasons given for the invasion are just distractions. the real reason for the invasion was that Russia wanted Ukraine back in Russia. simples.”

This is where I profoundly disagree with your viewpoint, the war was caused by the EU and NATO wanting to expand into neutral Ukraine, cutting off Russia from its Black Sea ports.

M0nica

ronib

Monica the population of Russia is 143.8 million as of 2023. The numbers lost in this ridiculous war are a fraction of the total population.
Also the argument rests on the word ifregarding energy prices. If can mean anything….

The Uk population is roughly half that of Russia.

If we were to lose a minimum of 35,000 young men in a military operation, probably nearer to 50,000, with many more seriously and disablingly injured. There woud be a public furore.

Whsy should it be different in Russia.

It’s different in Russia, China and North Korea because the public are not allowed an opinion the do what they are told, if they try to speak out they are thrown into jail.
The secret police are everywhere, every city, town and street.