Our world has changed forever - assisted dying bill

gentleshores

France passed an assisted dying law this year but it "stopped short of euthanasia" and stopped short of Doctors actively giving something.

This is the new French Law

"Under the new law, terminally ill but conscious patients may refuse treatment to prolong their lives. Seriously disabled patients who are not terminally ill may also request an end to treatment. Palliative treatment must continue, however, and the doctor may give increasingly strong doses of painkillers, even if it risks shortening the patient's life."

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC534833/

gentleshores

... Palliative treatment must continue, however, and the doctor may give increasingly strong doses of painkillers, even if it risks shortening the patient's life."

When you consider that people's pain-thresholds vary, is there really any 'safe' dose of an opiate - especially if the patient's body systems are gradually breaking-down due to a terminal condition?

I once accidentally took an extra dose - 10mg - of a prescription opiate (I'd forgotten that I'd already taken it). I called 111 to ask for advice (having heeded all the warnings on the package leaflet). A doctor called me back and almost laughed at my concern - "oh, you might feel a bit woozy, but that's all, don't worry, it's a very low dose" (he said).

... yeah, right. I was flat out of it for nearly 4 hours.

Fast-forward, I'm now on 15mg a day for pain - and it doesn't even touch the sides.

How does a doctor actually know what is the correct dose in any given situation?

When I was hospitalised for the surgery that actually caused the pain I now suffer - they just titrated according to my response...

I hope I end up with a doctor who does the same during my final hours.

This is not a ruling to get rid of elderly. It is about suffering and moving on gracefully. This is a legal option for those who want to end their suffering, not for those who don't want to end their suffering. It's a choice - not for family but for the person ailing. If you don't wanty the option, write that in your last legal documents now.

I know it covers physical suffering but what about mental suffering? How does it cover terminally ill children or is that not included in this bill?

My understanding is this bill doesn’t apply to children. Currently, the legislation covers children. There have been some heart breaking differences between medics and parents about the costs and benefits of treatments .

gentleshores

The timing seems wrong to me. There are still really long waiting lists for people, getting worse, because they can't get treatment. So there are more people needing assisted dying, simply because they can't get the care and treatment needed.

I've already felt thrown on the scrap heap at 66 after trying to get treatment for over two and a half years. And still in the system. This has now left me hardly able to walk and needing a mobility scooter and various knock on effects. So that when I go to A&E I am now assessed as "very frail". I am only "very frail" because I need treatment to get fit again. I do not want a DNR thank you.

I do not want a DNR thank you.

It's not a DNR, but make sure that your next-of-kin is aware that the medical staff can put DNR on your records without their knowledge when you are practically in a coma, as we well know.

Thanks for the tip! I will do.

I was under the impression that this bill, if/when it is eventually passed, will only be applicable to adults aged eighteen or over.

At present, yes. Whether it gets expanded in future is unknown. But the idea of an 18 year old being offered assisted dying - with so little life experience or knowledge of options - is quite sad and scary.

The idea of a child opting for AD is even worse.

There’s a good film/book The Chikdren act about the legal issues when a child decides against further treatment, I think the child is 17

Refusing treatment and asking for AD, are two very different things. You can't force a child to have treatment against their will, especially a teenager. But you can refuse AS until they are adults, and making sure they were given the chance to explore all the alternatives, and that they fully understand.

Allira

gentleshores

The timing seems wrong to me. There are still really long waiting lists for people, getting worse, because they can't get treatment. So there are more people needing assisted dying, simply because they can't get the care and treatment needed.

I've already felt thrown on the scrap heap at 66 after trying to get treatment for over two and a half years. And still in the system. This has now left me hardly able to walk and needing a mobility scooter and various knock on effects. So that when I go to A&E I am now assessed as "very frail". I am only "very frail" because I need treatment to get fit again. I do not want a DNR thank you.

I do not want a DNR thank you.

It's not a DNR, but make sure that your next-of-kin is aware that the medical staff can put DNR on your records without their knowledge when you are practically in a coma, as we well know.

gentleshores

I'm sorry that you are suffering this neglect - is that too strong a word? - by the health system. It's depressing and dispiriting to wake up each day facing a battle to simply get through it. At 66 years of age, you should, hopefully, have many years ahead of you - and they are being 'wasted'. It's morally criminal.

Of course, as everyone knows, the COVID epidemic had a devastating effect on our already struggling NHS and other health-care services. It all comes down to the same thing though... under-funding and mis-management.

The beginning of the passage of this bill should provoke a national demand for the whole structure and funding of our various health services to be re-evaluated. But it won't - and my goodness, what a mammoth task it would be. It would involve the very principles of our economy which is based on the free-market-small-state model and Starmer, for all his good intentions, is not going to change that.

On a personal level, I don't know what you can do whilst you're stuck in the system. I think some of us have become our own doctors - with the aid of Google... I've tried various 'self-help' measures to overcome my problems, because the alternative of just waiting is so soul-destroying.

I think the way our laws are written and enacted sets us apart somewhat from those countries who don't need to go back to parliament to make incremental changes.

Our laws can't be tinkered with in this way.

Dickens

Allira

gentleshores

The timing seems wrong to me. There are still really long waiting lists for people, getting worse, because they can't get treatment. So there are more people needing assisted dying, simply because they can't get the care and treatment needed.

I've already felt thrown on the scrap heap at 66 after trying to get treatment for over two and a half years. And still in the system. This has now left me hardly able to walk and needing a mobility scooter and various knock on effects. So that when I go to A&E I am now assessed as "very frail". I am only "very frail" because I need treatment to get fit again. I do not want a DNR thank you.

I do not want a DNR thank you.

It's not a DNR, but make sure that your next-of-kin is aware that the medical staff can put DNR on your records without their knowledge when you are practically in a coma, as we well know.

gentleshores

I'm sorry that you are suffering this neglect - is that too strong a word? - by the health system. It's depressing and dispiriting to wake up each day facing a battle to simply get through it. At 66 years of age, you should, hopefully, have many years ahead of you - and they are being 'wasted'. It's morally criminal.

Of course, as everyone knows, the COVID epidemic had a devastating effect on our already struggling NHS and other health-care services. It all comes down to the same thing though... under-funding and mis-management.

The beginning of the passage of this bill should provoke a national demand for the whole structure and funding of our various health services to be re-evaluated. But it won't - and my goodness, what a mammoth task it would be. It would involve the very principles of our economy which is based on the free-market-small-state model and Starmer, for all his good intentions, is not going to change that.

On a personal level, I don't know what you can do whilst you're stuck in the system. I think some of us have become our own doctors - with the aid of Google... I've tried various 'self-help' measures to overcome my problems, because the alternative of just waiting is so soul-destroying.

Thank you. I did try going private this year and that's when I felt thrown on the scrap heap. I know I just had the wrong consultant but he was so ageist and sexist and not interested.

I either need surgery or stem cell treatment. When I've got over the shock and stress of being treated so rudely and dismissively by the private Consultant I will maybe try a different one. Meanwhile I'm on a waiting list for a musculoskeletal clinic after jumping through hoops for two and a half years. It has indeed been a shock as to me it's been urgent for two and a half years.

GP surgery says they can't refer directly to specialists (unless it's arthritis which it isn't). I have been fighting a battle as it was originally caused by injury but now I'm just considered old and it's assumed normal for being old. It's awful.

It's hard to get into fighting mode when you're in pain and restricted.

So this experience forms my view that if someone has cancer and has been waiting for a long time - and could have got better with treatment, they might just offer AD instead of treatment.

I did think about sueing the NHS actually but unfortunately I don't have anything much in writing - it's all done face to face or over the phone at the Doctors isn't it? Not much proof of decisions made (or lack of them).

gentleshores - sorry re the expected to put up with your ailment because they say "normal for being old". That is a cop-out if ever a medic says that imo. I'm only going to live as far as my 80's (maybe....) - my own decision on that. But, even in my 80's (ie my last decade for sure) no medic would be allowed to get away with that one and the reply would be "If it's so normal - how come everyone else hasn't got it?".

I had that one - when I was in my 30's!!!! - from a doctor about an ailment - ie "Normal/to be expected at your age".

It took me 10 seconds to say "Early 30's !!!!!!" and 20 more seconds to walk out of his surgery. Followed by finding another doctor with a much better outlook on things and who agreed that I was right with what I thought it was....and it's been gone for years now...

gentleshores

So this experience forms my view that if someone has cancer and has been waiting for a long time - and could have got better with treatment, they might just offer AD instead of treatment.

and could have got better with treatment
That’s a supposition. When a person’s treatment is delayed for whatever reason there never was a guarantee that the person would be cured.

gentleshores

So this experience forms my view that if someone has cancer and has been waiting for a long time - and could have got better with treatment, they might just offer AD instead of treatment.

A committee will now be set up to establish how assisted dying will be exercised and safeguards needed. One of the considerations will be that doctors/medical staff will not be allowed to suggest assisted dying.

We all have a 'biological' age as well as a numerical one.

A decent doctor / consultant will consider your fitness to withstand or undergo any treatment, regardless of your calendar age.

... So said a consultant to a woman on my ward who became my friend. She was 87 years old, and he offered her surgery (fairly drastic but often performed) to improve her life.

The recovery was longer than it would've been for a younger person and there were some setbacks, but ultimately she went home to continue to look after her 91 year old husband, as fit and as well as she had been prior to the disease for which she had the surgery.

Fortunately, her consultant was also my consultant. He understood that the determining factor in any treatment or procedure is whether the body can tolerate or withstand it.

Unfortunately, he has now retired.

OldFrill

gentleshores

So this experience forms my view that if someone has cancer and has been waiting for a long time - and could have got better with treatment, they might just offer AD instead of treatment.

A committee will now be set up to establish how assisted dying will be exercised and safeguards needed. One of the considerations will be that doctors/medical staff will not be allowed to suggest assisted dying.

As far as I am aware doctors have stated that they will not tolerate being told what they are, and are not allowed to suggest. They will make their own clinical judgment.

Dickens

We all have a 'biological' age as well as a numerical one.

A decent doctor / consultant will consider your fitness to withstand or undergo any treatment, regardless of your calendar age.

... So said a consultant to a woman on my ward who became my friend. She was 87 years old, and he offered her surgery (fairly drastic but often performed) to improve her life.

The recovery was longer than it would've been for a younger person and there were some setbacks, but ultimately she went home to continue to look after her 91 year old husband, as fit and as well as she had been prior to the disease for which she had the surgery.

Fortunately, her consultant was also my consultant. He understood that the determining factor in any treatment or procedure is whether the body can tolerate or withstand it.

Unfortunately, he has now retired.

That's what upset me - obviously I'm in a worse state than I was two and a half years ago. I won't repeat some of the comments he made but he's the worst Doctor I've ever met. I stood up to him at one point (politely) and he just got nasty.

I tried to rationalise that not all Consultants are like this (which I know) but it actually knocked me for six psychologically for some time. And has indeed knocked my confidence in Specialists.

Anyway I won't bang on about it, but it wasn't a proper appointment - no discussion.

It doesn't help that the GP surgery are so laid back about it as well but been told their hands are tied. I mean - walking is important isn't it?!

@CariadAgain - yes had a load of rubbish in my fifties too with everything being put down to the menopause (that was pain in my feet which restricted walking too) but a good podiatrist insisted they send me for a scan and I had neuromas in both feet!

I've got 2 grandaughters aged 4 and 2. Last night I baby sat while their mum went to a hen do, their dad is away for work. Getting them to sleep was mayhem, they were screaming blue murder and calling for their mum, and they kept it up till their mum got home. I found it very upsetting, especially when the 4 year old was kicking me and screaming at me to go away. I felt useless and rejected. I know it's not just me, bedtime takes a couple of hours for the parents too. Their mum is thinking about sleep training, does anyone have experience of this and maybe a recommendation?

It might be better to make a new thread, Abbu.
Iy might get overlooked on this one.

MissAdventure

It might be better to make a new thread, Abbu.
Iy might get overlooked on this one.

Abbu - MissA gives good advice.

I’ve been reflecting on the OP, it’s just over two years since I sat with my husband as he died over 8 difficult days. He’d been diagnosed with metastasised stage 4 cancer, 6 months earlier, palliative care only . My brother in law has inoperable stage 4 and is currently helped by morphine whilst living at home. Like most others on this site, I’ve experienced the death of family members and close friends.
With one exception, pain relief was good. Withiut exception the medical team including consultants, nurses, ancillary staff have been good. I don’t expect perfection and often it’s come close

I am relieved not fearful that this bill is going to stage 2.