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Gisèlle Pelicot - the case is tearing French society apart.

(133 Posts)
FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 07-Dec-24 12:19:25

From an article in the Sunday Times:

“Since there are 50 in total, the alleged rapists have been tried in batches and I’m just here for the final seven: Boris, Philippe, Nicolas, Nizair, Joseph, Christian, Charly. Plus Dominique Pelicot himself, who invited them all into his marital bedroom, where he had his wife waiting, drugged and naked, and who joined in and filmed it all. Pelicot, 71, crumpled and fat now, but with a residual bulky power, sits sullenly alone with his guard in a separate glass box, protected from the other men who blame and detest him.

Ordinary men in many respects, not vagrants, junkies or career criminals. This week’s seven includes a fireman, an electrician and a journalist; several are fathers, two were keen weightlifters, one bred dogs. French trials helpfully begin with a personality profile formed from interviews with the men, their friends and colleagues. Poverty, domestic violence and mental breakdowns feature, but also that a man is “kind” or “gentle”, had a lovely childhood, adored his grandparents or is devoted to his mum.

But one question overshadows all others. How many men would have done the same? If Pelicot could recruit at least 70 willing participants (a number could not be identified) within a 25-mile radius of Mazan, the Provençal town where the couple retired, how many in the whole of France? As I walk through Avignon with Juliette Campion of radio station France Info, who bears the strain of reporting this case since September, she gestures to a bureau de tabac: “You think, ‘Would a guy in there have raped Gisèle? Or men in the boulangerie or those on the street?’ Women are looking at men differently: they’re asking, ‘Could you or you or you?’ ”

In court, I hear another psychiatrist tasked with assessing whether each of the final seven defendants has the profile of a sexual abuser. One by one, he exonerates the men, saying they are not dangerous or likely to reoffend, to the growing exasperation of Gisèle’s team. Then he reaches Charly A. “He doesn’t search [for victims] systematically,” says the psychiatrist. “He’s not a predator.” Finally, Babonneau explodes: “Six times with a sleeping woman and he’s not a sexual abuser?” The men do not identify as rapists because, like this psychiatrist, they define rape as frenzied sexual violence, not an opportunistic act performed to whispers in a private home. As one defendant put it, “It’s her husband, his house, his room, his bed, his wife.”

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 00:27:50

Most men are nothing but dogs. This case has made me look at men in a completely different light, it's actually scarred me hearing what these rapist did to her. The husband facilitating the abuse of his wife is probably the worst story I've heard. Although something really bothers me. Her vaginas and anus must have been very badly injured. Did she not have to seek medical help for this? I'm in no way victim blaming but over 10 years of what must have been extremely debilitating does make me wonder if she knew something was going on, even if she thought it was her husband, if she had no recollection, she must have sought help for her memory loss and must have been physically examined. The body doesn't recover quickly from these acts of penetration..can someone here tell me if she was seen by doctors and whether they were called to give evidence, and if so, why they didn't raise safeguarding concerns with the police?

pascal30 Tue 10-Dec-24 10:55:08

Dickens

M0nica

Oreo, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

👏👏👏

Sex without consent, or the physical or mental capability to give consent, is rape.

Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

I have a sister-in-law who's lived in rural France for the last 40+ years, and she echoes what you've said about the lifestyle, culture and attitudes, etc.

You certainly get a strong sense of French Cultural values when you spend a lot of time in Rural areas especially if you get invited in to eat with families.. which I imagine you did Monica..

Dickens Tue 10-Dec-24 09:06:38

M0nica

*Oreo*, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

👏👏👏

Sex without consent, or the physical or mental capability to give consent, is rape.

Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

I have a sister-in-law who's lived in rural France for the last 40+ years, and she echoes what you've said about the lifestyle, culture and attitudes, etc.

Iam64 Tue 10-Dec-24 08:47:49

fancythat

NotSpaghetti

I'm not thinking about men in this small area of France.
These "ordinary" men are everywhere in my opinion.

You cannot pick out a sex offender by looking at them, working with them, socialising or praying with them.

They are living next door to us - and in all obvious ways are just like the loving, decent, thoughtful and generous people we married.

Absolutely.

From what little I know, they can, like Saville, use "helping charities" as a useful cover.

Thanks FGT for starting this thread , it’s encouraged good discussions

NotSpaghetti is so right in stressing sex offenders live and work amongst us. Hiding in plain site was such an appropriate way to describe Saville and applies well to so many sex offenders.
The crimes against Mdme Pelicot are horrific. Undies suggestion that somehow they’re ‘lesser’ than other forms of rape is imo way off the mark. She’s been drugged and sold out by her husband for years. He’s escorted her to their doctor, claiming the sexually transmitted diseases she’s been given were the result of her affairs. The same doctor presumably who was doling out the sedatives.

I don’t believe these offences could only happen in France. There are many men who view women with disdain.

M0nica Mon 09-Dec-24 20:52:10

Oreo, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

SueDonim Mon 09-Dec-24 18:41:04

According to the BBC, the maximum sentence for rape in France is 20 years. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj3md2yzy2xo

Aveline Mon 09-Dec-24 18:24:40

Surely they'll all get jail time? I expect their families will disown them too. A chilly Christmas for them. Good!

fancythat Mon 09-Dec-24 17:59:19

NotSpaghetti

I'm not thinking about men in this small area of France.
These "ordinary" men are everywhere in my opinion.

You cannot pick out a sex offender by looking at them, working with them, socialising or praying with them.

They are living next door to us - and in all obvious ways are just like the loving, decent, thoughtful and generous people we married.

Absolutely.

From what little I know, they can, like Saville, use "helping charities" as a useful cover.

Oreo Mon 09-Dec-24 17:29:10

I wish I could feel certain that the men involved will actually get jail time, but I don’t.

tictacnana Mon 09-Dec-24 17:25:46

How truly awful this has been. It lowers mankind to such a degree that to call them animals would be an insult to most of the animal kingdom. ALL the men are equally guilty and I hope they lose everything they hold dear for what they did. The husband ? I can’t imagine what was going through his head. He should, and probably won’t, ever walk free again. His wife, courageous woman, should live out her remaining years in sunshine and surrounded by the love and support of family and friends.

Oreo Mon 09-Dec-24 17:23:23

M0nica

albertina

This is a very disturbing case. Until my friend opened up to me about her daughter's marital difficulties I would have no idea how different life is for many French women. Her daughter has been married to a very unpleasant Frenchman for over 30 years and they live in France. She seems to have no real rights and to be regarded as a chattal but society.
What happened to that poor woman is horrendous but it is bringing the state of life for women in France to the fore.

We have had a home in France for over 30 years and visted it regularly. This picture of woman's rights in France sounds more like the description of somewhere in the Gulf states.

French women have similar rights in France to those in Britain. Yes there are variations, on some points better, in other situations worse. Certainly this case shows that the definition of rape needs strengthening, but women in France treated like chattels? Not in my experience.

I think your experience of France was holiday experience only.
The French culture is different to ours in lots of ways.

Ilovedogs22 Mon 09-Dec-24 17:19:34

SueEH

I am in awe of Gisele.

Yes completely, she is a brave warrior woman. I have been blindsided by this shocking case & look at Men with different eyes now. 🤔

Ilovedogs22 Mon 09-Dec-24 17:15:51

Maggiemaybe

Instead of course of being her home, her room, her bed, her body…

Every one of these men is a disgrace to the human race. One of the most shocking things about the case to me is that not a single one of them thought “this is wrong, I’ll report it”. If just one man approached by Pelicot had done this, the whole horror would have been stopped.

Oh, Maggiemaybe, you have managed to sum-up my totally bewildered thoughts exactly on this utterly shocking, unbelievable
happening. From henceforth, I will never look at a man in the same way again! A real-life horror story. 🤔

SueEH Mon 09-Dec-24 17:15:27

I am in awe of Gisele.

pascal30 Mon 09-Dec-24 17:04:36

Allira

undines

I'm sorry I know I am going to be hated for saying this, but I do not think that having sex with a drugged woman, in her own bed is the same as violent assault where the victim is beaten and even hurt as well as raped, not do I think it is on a par with having sex with children. I do not think that the psychology of men is given space these days - we are very quick to brand them as 'monsters' for their desires, which are more objective than ours. PLEASE NOTE, I DO NOT SAY THIS IS OKAY, just that it was easier for the men concerned to kid themselves about what they were doing. It may be hard for men to realise what rape is because they probably would not mind being sexually tampered with by 50 females. These men need to be punished, yes, but not in the same way as those who have been brutal and who are a danger. Men need educating, from childhood upwards, about respect and empathy. They do not need to be made to feel guilty for their maleness - they need positive role-models with integrity, protectiveness, consideration and strength, and these are largely absent.

Of course IT WAS RAPE.

It was RAPE pure and simple.. SEX WITHOUT CONSENT

Allira Mon 09-Dec-24 16:58:58

undines

I'm sorry I know I am going to be hated for saying this, but I do not think that having sex with a drugged woman, in her own bed is the same as violent assault where the victim is beaten and even hurt as well as raped, not do I think it is on a par with having sex with children. I do not think that the psychology of men is given space these days - we are very quick to brand them as 'monsters' for their desires, which are more objective than ours. PLEASE NOTE, I DO NOT SAY THIS IS OKAY, just that it was easier for the men concerned to kid themselves about what they were doing. It may be hard for men to realise what rape is because they probably would not mind being sexually tampered with by 50 females. These men need to be punished, yes, but not in the same way as those who have been brutal and who are a danger. Men need educating, from childhood upwards, about respect and empathy. They do not need to be made to feel guilty for their maleness - they need positive role-models with integrity, protectiveness, consideration and strength, and these are largely absent.

Of course IT WAS RAPE.

M0nica Mon 09-Dec-24 15:53:34

albertina

This is a very disturbing case. Until my friend opened up to me about her daughter's marital difficulties I would have no idea how different life is for many French women. Her daughter has been married to a very unpleasant Frenchman for over 30 years and they live in France. She seems to have no real rights and to be regarded as a chattal but society.
What happened to that poor woman is horrendous but it is bringing the state of life for women in France to the fore.

We have had a home in France for over 30 years and visted it regularly. This picture of woman's rights in France sounds more like the description of somewhere in the Gulf states.

French women have similar rights in France to those in Britain. Yes there are variations, on some points better, in other situations worse. Certainly this case shows that the definition of rape needs strengthening, but women in France treated like chattels? Not in my experience.

rocketship Mon 09-Dec-24 15:00:48

sodapop

Man is still king in France sadly. We have had examples of this often whilst living in France.
I think the comments from the the Maire said it all really. Of course he is Maire no longer.

** If you think this is only happening in France, unfortunately you are sadly mistaken.

How brave this woman is to expose it there!!!

Elegran Mon 09-Dec-24 14:57:38

Oreo

theworriedwell

Her husband saying she had affairs she couldn't remember seems bizarre. She must have been brainwashed by him to believe that. I wonder if that's why one of the sons wants a DNA test as he thinks hd has a different father? Either the father's planted that thought or maybe just hoping he isn't really related to him.

I can’t understand why she accepted that she had affairs I wouldn’t in a million years, brain fog or no.Does it mean perhaps they had an open marriage?

One report says that she had had an affair earlier, so maybe when her husband said she had, her memory of that one made her think that she had had another while her brain was foggy, and that her husband was right. The strong medication was the cause of the brain fog, and of her not remembering being raped by numerous men. 50 were on trial, but there were a lot more who there wasn't enough evidence for a trial. Perhaps her son though he might be a result of those rapes, or perhaps he was thinking of the earlier affair. Whatever the reason, he must have been very persuasive or very controlling.

pascal30 Mon 09-Dec-24 14:48:22

The husband was giving her strong medication without her knowledge, and she thought she was mentally unwell because of the way they affected her brain..

I find one of the most appalling aspects of this case was the husband accompanying her to the GP and talking on her behalf. Not only lying but further humiliating her..

Oreo Mon 09-Dec-24 14:42:26

theworriedwell

Her husband saying she had affairs she couldn't remember seems bizarre. She must have been brainwashed by him to believe that. I wonder if that's why one of the sons wants a DNA test as he thinks hd has a different father? Either the father's planted that thought or maybe just hoping he isn't really related to him.

I can’t understand why she accepted that she had affairs I wouldn’t in a million years, brain fog or no.Does it mean perhaps they had an open marriage?

theworriedwell Mon 09-Dec-24 14:13:47

Cariad if you go to the pension section where you worked you might have a small pension. The other possibility is they repaid your contributions when you left. Back then they could do that if it was a relatively short time. I don't suppose you remember if your final pay was more than you were expecting.

My husband has been getting his police pension for longer than he was a police officer which is quite a bargain although he'd rather be fit and well and not have had to resign. Another swingS and roundabouts situation.

On another thread we were talking about car insurance and it occurred to me that women used to get cheaper insurance than men. Equality definitely put women's car insurance up. More swings and roundabouts. Probably lots on both sides.

theworriedwell Mon 09-Dec-24 14:06:06

Her husband saying she had affairs she couldn't remember seems bizarre. She must have been brainwashed by him to believe that. I wonder if that's why one of the sons wants a DNA test as he thinks hd has a different father? Either the father's planted that thought or maybe just hoping he isn't really related to him.

Mojack26 Mon 09-Dec-24 13:47:11

Totally agree! They should all be jailed and as for her 'husband' Id hive him life!

GrauntyHelen Mon 09-Dec-24 13:38:45

I hope every single rapist for that is what they are gets a hefty sentence and the husband gets locked up FOR EVER