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Gisèlle Pelicot - the case is tearing French society apart.

(133 Posts)
FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 07-Dec-24 12:19:25

From an article in the Sunday Times:

“Since there are 50 in total, the alleged rapists have been tried in batches and I’m just here for the final seven: Boris, Philippe, Nicolas, Nizair, Joseph, Christian, Charly. Plus Dominique Pelicot himself, who invited them all into his marital bedroom, where he had his wife waiting, drugged and naked, and who joined in and filmed it all. Pelicot, 71, crumpled and fat now, but with a residual bulky power, sits sullenly alone with his guard in a separate glass box, protected from the other men who blame and detest him.

Ordinary men in many respects, not vagrants, junkies or career criminals. This week’s seven includes a fireman, an electrician and a journalist; several are fathers, two were keen weightlifters, one bred dogs. French trials helpfully begin with a personality profile formed from interviews with the men, their friends and colleagues. Poverty, domestic violence and mental breakdowns feature, but also that a man is “kind” or “gentle”, had a lovely childhood, adored his grandparents or is devoted to his mum.

But one question overshadows all others. How many men would have done the same? If Pelicot could recruit at least 70 willing participants (a number could not be identified) within a 25-mile radius of Mazan, the Provençal town where the couple retired, how many in the whole of France? As I walk through Avignon with Juliette Campion of radio station France Info, who bears the strain of reporting this case since September, she gestures to a bureau de tabac: “You think, ‘Would a guy in there have raped Gisèle? Or men in the boulangerie or those on the street?’ Women are looking at men differently: they’re asking, ‘Could you or you or you?’ ”

In court, I hear another psychiatrist tasked with assessing whether each of the final seven defendants has the profile of a sexual abuser. One by one, he exonerates the men, saying they are not dangerous or likely to reoffend, to the growing exasperation of Gisèle’s team. Then he reaches Charly A. “He doesn’t search [for victims] systematically,” says the psychiatrist. “He’s not a predator.” Finally, Babonneau explodes: “Six times with a sleeping woman and he’s not a sexual abuser?” The men do not identify as rapists because, like this psychiatrist, they define rape as frenzied sexual violence, not an opportunistic act performed to whispers in a private home. As one defendant put it, “It’s her husband, his house, his room, his bed, his wife.”

CariadAgain Sat 14-Dec-24 16:59:19

I hadnt even realised that there is a "technicality" that might get used by these awful men!!! This is surely going to "blow up" in all their faces if anyone is daft enough to say "Ah - but it's France - where a man doesn't need his wife's permission for sex with her". These men aren't her husband though - so the * himself may get off more lightly than he should - but surely none of the other men concerned would do so.

Surely too there is some sort of penalty for knowingly having sex with a woman in any circumstances if a man knows he has an STD? That's the thing - they've not just raped her - but several of the men have made her ill and it looked as at least some of the illnesses they've passed onto her may not even be curable ones.

ferry23 Sat 14-Dec-24 16:47:24

pascal30

Has everyone seen the Channel 5 documentary.. M. Pelicot also spent 5 years going to rape a woman drugged by her husband a co-conspiritor,, he is also being looked at by Police as someone involved in the rapes and one death of 4 young women in Paris..

Gisele is a true inspiration to women around the world who have previously not found the courage to pursue the perpetrator.. 94% of cases in France do not get to court

I've just watched it.

It was harrowing and sickening in parts, but I almost felt that as a woman, it was my duty to watch it. (Sorry if that sounds sanctimonious but I can't explain it any other way).

The French laws surrounding sexual violence against women are archaic. As mentioned upthread "consent" is not mentioned in any law. The figure of 94% of alleged rape cases not reaching court is appalling.

Are there, I wonder, any other types of crime that attract more victim shaming than sexual offences against women?

Despite the court being shown videos of the actual acts of rape, with the victim clearly recognisable as Mme. Pelicot, the defence lawyers still went down the route of questioning if she enjoyed threesomes, if she was into "swinging" and similar. How demeaning, how very WRONG.

She is a remarkably brave woman and I sincerely hope her bravery is rewarded by drastic changes in the laws surrounding sexual violence.

pascal30 Sat 14-Dec-24 12:36:11

Iam64

Horrified will do it
She should be struck off

This really brings out the inherent nastiness of some people.. I think she should be disciplined by whatever Law Society they have in France..

Dickens Sat 14-Dec-24 12:19:40

Freshair

Shows that "without consent" needs to be added to the definition. It would be hideous if this case found in the rapists' favour on a technicality. The lawyers representing them are asking for these rapists to be acquitted on the grounds that the husband manipulated them. Shocking isn't it.

The lawyers representing them are asking for these rapists to be acquitted on the grounds that the husband manipulated them. Shocking isn't it.

... how on earth can an adult male be manipulated by another adult male with whom he is not in any kind of relationship, unless said adult male is being blackmailed or threatened with violence, in which case he might be vulnerable to being manipulated?

Were all these men being threatened by Pelicot? I was under the impression that they were members / viewers of a website which catered for men who have a penchant for having sex with women who are 'unresisting' / mute / unconscious, and accepted Pelicot's 'invitation' to do just that?

If these men are acquitted on a technicality - I don't think the women of France are going to quietly accept it - nor a percentage of men, come to that, if you look at the photo's of the demonstrations in support of Gisèle, there are a number of men present.

Iam64 Sat 14-Dec-24 12:04:17

Horrified will do it
She should be struck off

OldFrill Sat 14-Dec-24 10:49:44

One of the defence lawyers (female) released a video prior to entering the court, where she's singing "wake me up before you go go". She says it's because she's been threatened and people have tried to stop her speaking out in defence of the accused. I can't think of the correct word to describe my reaction. Horrified is possibly close.

NotSpaghetti Sat 14-Dec-24 09:53:59

I think they won't Aveline - the wording needs to be changed.

Maybe there is something possible around "slavery" laws??
🤷‍♂️

Aveline Sat 14-Dec-24 09:49:52

Surely those men will get serious custodial sentences. If not, then I expect a massive reaction from the women of France and around the world.

FriedGreenTomatoes2 Fri 13-Dec-24 20:40:15

I think sentencing starts next Tuesday 17th December?
Let’s hope justice for Mdme Pelicot is served. 🤞

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 20:19:14

Shows that "without consent" needs to be added to the definition. It would be hideous if this case found in the rapists' favour on a technicality. The lawyers representing them are asking for these rapists to be acquitted on the grounds that the husband manipulated them. Shocking isn't it.

Oreo Fri 13-Dec-24 19:33:23

Smileless2012

It is MissA and may 'explain' why one of the accused b.....ds doesn't see himself as a rapist tchangry.

…..and why they may not get jail time.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 19:33:03

I didn't see the entire documentary pascal but did see one of the accused claiming to be 'more of a feminist than feminists'!!!

Galaxy Fri 13-Dec-24 19:29:20

Thank you. That's helpful information.
The conviction rate in this country is 5%. I dont know the figures of percentage going to court kn this country but as it seems fairly pointless going to court with that conviction rate I dont know that it matters.

Jaxjacky Fri 13-Dec-24 19:04:31

Thank you pascal

pascal30 Fri 13-Dec-24 18:11:20

Has everyone seen the Channel 5 documentary.. M. Pelicot also spent 5 years going to rape a woman drugged by her husband a co-conspiritor,, he is also being looked at by Police as someone involved in the rapes and one death of 4 young women in Paris..

Gisele is a true inspiration to women around the world who have previously not found the courage to pursue the perpetrator.. 94% of cases in France do not get to court

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 17:39:43

It is MissA and may 'explain' why one of the accused b.....ds doesn't see himself as a rapist tchangry.

MissInterpreted Fri 13-Dec-24 17:36:17

Wow, that's appalling.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 17:30:20

The current legal definition of rape in France includes violence, coercion, threat or surprise but does not include consent.

Macron said in March of this year that he was in favour of having consent added.

Allira Fri 13-Dec-24 17:24:59

MissInterpreted

Galaxy

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

I was about to say the same. Don't understand that comment at all.

In this country, the UK, and others then yes, but not in all countries.

PARIS — It may have taken a horrifying mass rape trial for France to include the notion of consent in its legislation.

New Justice Minister Didier Migaud said on Friday during an interview on radio station France Inter that he was in favor of rewriting the legal definition of rape in France to include consent.

French law currently defines rape as “any act of sexual penetration of any kind whatsoever, or any oral-genital act committed … by violence, coercion, threat or surprise.” The need to seek each party’s consent is not explicitly mentioned.

Politico
September 27, 2024

MissInterpreted Fri 13-Dec-24 17:15:34

Galaxy

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

I was about to say the same. Don't understand that comment at all.

Galaxy Fri 13-Dec-24 17:07:50

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

Jaxjacky Fri 13-Dec-24 16:29:33

Non consensual sex is not against the law in Françe.

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 15:48:43

Men have one thing on their mind and given half the chance they'd have sex with a woman (or a man) who facilitates it..this is what I mean when I say 'most men' - obviously these rapists actively engaged on the Web with this evil husband so they went looking for something out of the ordinary. The husband sounds so controlling and sinister in what he set out to do. Any good doctor/GP would have asked to see their patient privately (without any additional person present). Aren't the medical professionals trained to spot coercion?

Elegran Fri 13-Dec-24 15:04:51

Most men would NOT have done what these men are accused of, and particularly NOT what her husband has admitted doing.

CariadAgain Fri 13-Dec-24 12:19:49

Freshair

Most men are nothing but dogs. This case has made me look at men in a completely different light, it's actually scarred me hearing what these rapist did to her. The husband facilitating the abuse of his wife is probably the worst story I've heard. Although something really bothers me. Her vaginas and anus must have been very badly injured. Did she not have to seek medical help for this? I'm in no way victim blaming but over 10 years of what must have been extremely debilitating does make me wonder if she knew something was going on, even if she thought it was her husband, if she had no recollection, she must have sought help for her memory loss and must have been physically examined. The body doesn't recover quickly from these acts of penetration..can someone here tell me if she was seen by doctors and whether they were called to give evidence, and if so, why they didn't raise safeguarding concerns with the police?

We've been told she did go and see the doctor - more than once. But that husband of hers made sure he went with her - in order to censor what they talked about. Since she mistakenly thought he was "normal" and they had a "happy marriage" then I guess it's not surprising she didn't look to see a different doctor and not tell him where she was going.