The ragged trousered philanthropist

The two books that shaped me politically were Germinal by Zola and Orwell’s A Clergyman’s Daughter, which made me realise how easy it is to go into a downward spiral and not get back up again.

Thanks for the recommendation and the extract.

I never read the book. If the author is saying that every society and every culture contains an elite group , and social classes we must agree that is human nature.

Socialists strive to regulate society's class structure by aiming for social mobility so that people from the lower classes may. through their own merit, get to rise in the class structure. In short, everyone has a chance in life.

To give everyone a chance in life socialists endorse free high quality education for all, paid out of taxes.

Tressell's book (the only one he wrote) is an outstanding novel about the exploitation of the working class before the safety net of the welfare state was created. Definitely worth a read.

I’m not sure. You can make that assumption really caleo

I think that it very much depends on the economic system that a society employs - and I’m not talking about socialism.

Traditional societies frequently have no real hierarchy and everything is shared equally for the good of all. Greed is completely and simply not tolerated.

So I think that man’s nature is much more philanthropic than
You suggest, however, I do recognise that our behaviour is very much governed by the economic system in which we live. So greed is a necessary attribute in a capitalist system, that promotes the individual and not the social group.

I wrote that every society contains an elite group.

Whitewavemark, it's not my assumption it's directly from the lips of a professor of social anthropology.

Just picked up the book and read the first couple of lines of the foreword.

What a giant Tony Benn was.

They don’t make them like that any more.

MayBee70

The two books that shaped me politically were Germinal by Zola and Orwell’s A Clergyman’s Daughter, which made me realise how easy it is to go into a downward spiral and not get back up again.

Yes, that is very true, especially in the past when destitution led to the workhouse.

BTW This propfessor well knew Lord Street, Liverpool well; he himself was a Liverpudlian.

Caleo

I wrote that every society contains an elite group.

Whitewavemark, it's not my assumption it's directly from the lips of a professor of social anthropology.

I’m sure, but I don’t agree.

Did no one ask him about social grouping amongst Hunter-gatherers?

Caleo

Thanks for the recommendation and the extract.

I never read the book. If the author is saying that every society and every culture contains an elite group , and social classes we must agree that is human nature.

Socialists strive to regulate society's class structure by aiming for social mobility so that people from the lower classes may. through their own merit, get to rise in the class structure. In short, everyone has a chance in life.

To give everyone a chance in life socialists endorse free high quality education for all, paid out of taxes.

I absolutely agree, I have read a biography of Thomas Hardy who was born into the working classes and managed to become middle class, through both luck and genius. It was clear in the book just how difficult it was to make this transition and how he became a bit ashamed of his background, in particular when his mother said ‘baint’!

Education of good quality is the key and opportunities which were non existent in the past, as well illustrated in the RTP.

Where are societies without a hierarchy?, certainly not communist countries, all they've done is replace a plutocracy with their own elite, whilst the masses are reduced to subsistence levels, do you mean say communities structured along the lines of a kibbutz WW?

One of George Orwell’s that’s not often mentioned, is ‘A Clergyman’s Daughter’. She is the much put-upon, overworked and unappreciated spinster daughter, who eventually loses her memory (presumably through stress) and the book covers her subsequent ‘adventures’, including among the Cockney summer hop-pickers in Kent.

I first picked it up from the for-sale shelf in the British Council library in Nicosia in the early 70s, and have re-read it more than once.

TerriBull

Where are societies without a hierarchy?, certainly not communist countries, all they've done is replace a plutocracy with their own elite, whilst the masses are reduced to subsistence levels, do you mean say communities structured along the lines of a kibbutz WW?

No, my reply was to caleo who suggested that it is part of man’s nature to form elites and forms of division.

I reply that imo humans are much more philanthropic than that and an example I gave was traditional hunter-gatherer societies where individualism and greed is simply not tolerated.

I argued that the economic system in which we find ourselves governs our behaviour. Individualism and greed is encouraged in the capitalist system.

...but if we went back in time to hunter-gatherer societies, and some primitive tribes such as those in the Amazon who still exist, how can we know they don't have their own hierarchies. Tribal people wherever they emanated from had chiefs who were top of the pile I imagine and those under him. it was usually a him, had to be deferential.

I think there are societies that do have more equality, the Scandinavian ideal for example. I did read somewhere, I can't remember where, that there is less of a gap between what the head honchos earn and the general workforce. That would be good for starters. It's truly shocking the remuneration that those at the top earn here, particularly in the public sector where bosses can and do fail upwards, just taking on more lucrative appointments elsewhere. In the private sector, one example, I couldn't believe how much the boss of Persimmon Builders earned back in 2018, it was something like £70 million plus, whilst their shitty substandard homes fell apart around owners ears. We have a massive disparity between what the masses earn here, many have to resort to a side hustle. People cannot afford their lives through no fault of their own. I would like to see much higher tax threshold for those on the minimum wage before they become eligible for tax, there's something wrong when those not working can receive an equivalent to those who are working.

I would recommend reading the play "An Inspector Calls"
by JB Priestly. It was written in the 1940s but set in the 1900s.
There are also excellent screen adaptations available.

I believe it is a set text for GCSE.

Oh but JB Priestley can be turgid!

TerriBull

...but if we went back in time to hunter-gatherer societies, and some primitive tribes such as those in the Amazon who still exist, how can we know they don't have their own hierarchies. Tribal people wherever they emanated from had chiefs who were top of the pile I imagine and those under him. it was usually a him, had to be deferential.

I think there are societies that do have more equality, the Scandinavian ideal for example. I did read somewhere, I can't remember where, that there is less of a gap between what the head honchos earn and the general workforce. That would be good for starters. It's truly shocking the remuneration that those at the top earn here, particularly in the public sector where bosses can and do fail upwards, just taking on more lucrative appointments elsewhere. In the private sector, one example, I couldn't believe how much the boss of Persimmon Builders earned back in 2018, it was something like £70 million plus, whilst their shitty substandard homes fell apart around owners ears. We have a massive disparity between what the masses earn here, many have to resort to a side hustle. People cannot afford their lives through no fault of their own. I would like to see much higher tax threshold for those on the minimum wage before they become eligible for tax, there's something wrong when those not working can receive an equivalent to those who are working.

Because there have been studies on Hunter gatherer societies.

So

A cultural anthropologist Margaret Mead studied pacific traditional Societies. Durkheim studied Australasian traditional societies. And there has been studies done on African Hunter-gathered and groups in Indonesia.

Witzend

One of George Orwell’s that’s not often mentioned, is ‘A Clergyman’s Daughter’. She is the much put-upon, overworked and unappreciated spinster daughter, who eventually loses her memory (presumably through stress) and the book covers her subsequent ‘adventures’, including among the Cockney summer hop-pickers in Kent.

I first picked it up from the for-sale shelf in the British Council library in Nicosia in the early 70s, and have re-read it more than once.

Thank you for the recommendation, another one for my list!

Indigo8

I would recommend reading the play "An Inspector Calls"
by JB Priestly. It was written in the 1940s but set in the 1900s.
There are also excellent screen adaptations available.

I believe it is a set text for GCSE.

I have seen this play, it is very insightful and worth a viewing.

TerriBull

...but if we went back in time to hunter-gatherer societies, and some primitive tribes such as those in the Amazon who still exist, how can we know they don't have their own hierarchies. Tribal people wherever they emanated from had chiefs who were top of the pile I imagine and those under him. it was usually a him, had to be deferential.

I think there are societies that do have more equality, the Scandinavian ideal for example. I did read somewhere, I can't remember where, that there is less of a gap between what the head honchos earn and the general workforce. That would be good for starters. It's truly shocking the remuneration that those at the top earn here, particularly in the public sector where bosses can and do fail upwards, just taking on more lucrative appointments elsewhere. In the private sector, one example, I couldn't believe how much the boss of Persimmon Builders earned back in 2018, it was something like £70 million plus, whilst their shitty substandard homes fell apart around owners ears. We have a massive disparity between what the masses earn here, many have to resort to a side hustle. People cannot afford their lives through no fault of their own. I would like to see much higher tax threshold for those on the minimum wage before they become eligible for tax, there's something wrong when those not working can receive an equivalent to those who are working.

Apparently Canada is a very equal society, it sounds like a pleasant country to live in. Thank you for your post,
I enjoyed reading it.

Well I'm sure anthropologists would know what they're talking about, it's their life's work. I do remember hearing, a psychologist, I can't remember his full name he had James in it somewhere, talking about cultures that weren't imbued in consumerism the way we are in the west were far happier, he said something along the lines of "the more we strive to acquire the unhappier we become, what we chase it's just stuff" Unfortunately it's human nature, and it does seem to me once civilisations were formed and mankind moved away from the hunter/gatherer existence to move forward, or possibly backwards depending on your perspective, then with that came hierarchies, the desire to acquire worldly goods and to expand their reach into other territories.

TerriBull

Well I'm sure anthropologists would know what they're talking about, it's their life's work. I do remember hearing, a psychologist, I can't remember his full name he had James in it somewhere, talking about cultures that weren't imbued in consumerism the way we are in the west were far happier, he said something along the lines of "the more we strive to acquire the unhappier we become, what we chase it's just stuff" Unfortunately it's human nature, and it does seem to me once civilisations were formed and mankind moved away from the hunter/gatherer existence to move forward, or possibly backwards depending on your perspective, then with that came hierarchies, the desire to acquire worldly goods and to expand their reach into other territories.

Yes, a friend went to India and went to some of the villages, she said they had very little but seemed content, family support is worth more than stuff.

I'm sure you're right BevSec, but that Pandora's Box is well and truly open here in our society. Frankly the rampant consumerism that surrounds Christmas does my head in a little bit more every year, in that respect I'd like to go backwards.

I remember the name of the man I was thinking of re. our desire to just acquire stuff, Oliver James, psychologist and author. Although I'd be a hypocrite to say that I never want to buy things I don't need, I did that the other day. Guilty as charged!

TerriBull

I've bought the book it having been mentioned several times on GN, it's on the to read pile.

I'm another to the 3 simultaneous books on the go. I always have a novel, at the moment that's, The Echo Chamber, John Boyne, on Audible I'm listening to The Precipice by Robert Harris, usually when I'm, ironing, cooking or wake early hours of the morning. My 3rd book is non fiction, at the moment I'm reading The Plantagenets, which I read at a much slower pace, I've only just finished the reign of King John, Magna Carta and all of that

I listened to Precipice, really enjoyed it!

I read The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists many years ago, and it stuck with me. I was reminded of it when I saw voters at a Food bank telling the interviewer they would be voting Tory.