Mother sentenced for twins’ deaths

Good post.

Barleyfields

Good post Doodledog.

I completely agree Doodledog and I also thought of the Mcanns

Good post Doodledog.

I'm not blaming the grandparents, or the father (although there are questions to be asked about his involvement). We don't know the full story. People do have a right to refuse entry to their homes - we hear on here about people who don't get invited into friends' houses - and I would be most annoyed of anyone demanded entry to my house, although I often have people round by invitation. If she found her house too difficult to look after (whether because of having four babies, because of failing eyesight or her learning difficulties) she may have become defensive and not wanted people to see the mess.

What did the authorities know about the situation? I am the first to agree that if there is evidence of harm being done to children there should be intervention, but if there was none how would they know? A suspicion can be followed up, but if there is nothing to go on when they get there, persistently targeting the family would become harassment. It's easy to say after the event that children should come first (of course they should) but do we want to live in a world where people can burst into our homes uninvited? Also, how many social workers would we need to make that a possibility, and how would we pay for them? Arguably that sort of behaviour would deter social workers from entering the profession, as they would become more like the police.

The question of 'essential' shopping came up in lockdown, with people very keen to judge others for the contents of their baskets. What is essential to one person may not be to another. I would never see sprouts as essential, but there is an argument for all vegetables being necessary. Even things like wine might be essential to an alcoholic, but a luxury to others. None of us can judge that sort of thing. How different was it from the (non essential) night out the McCanns had? I know I'm banging on about that, but apart from the state of the house, the situation seems very similar to me. Something terrible happens to children who seem otherwise loved and cared for when the parent(s) were avoidably away from the scene. One family gets support, enormous levels of funding across Europe and sympathy, and the other is jailed for ten years.

I don't like the recent tendency to always look for blame rather than explain I don't think it's helpful in trying to prevent incidents in the future.

I cant find any record of what was wrong with her eyes just it was alluded to.

What is wrong with Rose's eyes?

It cannot have been poor eyesight which resulted in the house being so filthy with a mattress, a door on the stairs etc, faeces around the place.
She managed to walk to the supermarket, buy unnecessary items and home again. She obviously had MH issues and was good at covering up the problems she was having but all the more reason for alarm and the authorities to insist on ensuring four small children were safe.

I'm not surprised that some people on Mumsnet are blaming the grandparents, it is the usual thing that happens on MN, grandparents are damned and villified if they interfere, are uncaring if they do not. Of course they will shift blame.

Certainly a strong local review, I'm not sure of the benefit of a national one. When were the critical points that were missed, what do you do when intervention is refused.

As for prison, I just cant see alternatives in the community - but if only they could offer genuine mental health and rehabilitative programmes, treatment for her eyes.

This case needs reviewing by the Home Secretary. It reflects a gross failure of statutory social services.

No Dickens I don't think it's a bad thing. Of course if people need help and it's there of course the should take it . I wouldn't want any mother to go through what mine did. All of the above plus being beaten, battered and abused regularly. Shee had to cope. There was no help. Maybe not this particular lady but I feel that some ask for help because it is there when may E they don't really need it. I'm probably wrong.

Cossy

Kate1949

Please don't think me harsh. This is a terrible tragedy for all concerned. However, why do people these days expect 'support'?

My mother had 7 children very close together. I'm sure some must have been in nappies at the same time. She had a violent, feckless, alcoholic husband who gave her money when he felt like it. Her family were in another country and she had no friends really in this country. We had no bathroom, an outside toilet, no washing machine. She did it all, alone with no 'support'. This lady made a mistake, never dreaming this would happen. It's awful for all concerned.

Your poor (wonderful) mum!

completely agree Kate.. what an amazing woman..

Kate1949

Please don't think me harsh. This is a terrible tragedy for all concerned. However, why do people these days expect 'support'?

My mother had 7 children very close together. I'm sure some must have been in nappies at the same time. She had a violent, feckless, alcoholic husband who gave her money when he felt like it. Her family were in another country and she had no friends really in this country. We had no bathroom, an outside toilet, no washing machine. She did it all, alone with no 'support'. This lady made a mistake, never dreaming this would happen. It's awful for all concerned.

Your poor (wonderful) mum!

Kate1949

Please don't think me harsh. This is a terrible tragedy for all concerned. However, why do people these days expect 'support'?

My mother had 7 children very close together. I'm sure some must have been in nappies at the same time. She had a violent, feckless, alcoholic husband who gave her money when he felt like it. Her family were in another country and she had no friends really in this country. We had no bathroom, an outside toilet, no washing machine. She did it all, alone with no 'support'. This lady made a mistake, never dreaming this would happen. It's awful for all concerned.

Please don't think me harsh. This is a terrible tragedy for all concerned. However, why do people these days expect 'support'?

Do you mean people in general, or just parents - mothers?

Disregarding this particular tragedy, I think people expect support, because it's available. Society has recognised that there are occasions when life - particularly family life or elderly care situations can be too difficult for one person to cope with so decided that there should be support systems to help them. Whether the situation is one of their own-making or not is another matter.

Do you think that's a bad thing?

We know that back in the day, families just had to get on with it because they didn't have such options. I would imagine that there were people - probably mostly women because family burdens usually fall heaviest on their shoulders - who suffered in silence with 'life' gradually wearing down their resilience.

Do you think we'd be better off as a society if there was no support, for any situation, and we all tried to cope as best we could?

It’s amazing who comes out of the woodwork after the event …

This woman spent lockdown on her own with 4 children, suffering with depression and she was losing her sight. She now has no sight.. It does not in any way excuse her leaving them alone locked in a room but I hope she isn't made to suffer more in prison..
Why the hell don't these fathers step up..

What she did was terrible but I am in no position to judge her.

Yes and the mother of the twins was said to have had mental health issues. I'm sure her life was very difficult.

I think your mother did her best under very difficult circumstances Kate, from what I’ve read. I suppose most of us do our best, according to our circumstances. I can’t imagine having two sets of twins so close together. My Mum was my absolute rock but not everyone is so lucky.

Definitely not. Please don't think I'm being judgemental. People make mistakes but I'm just saying.

Were her very small children ever left alone while she went shopping Kate?

Please don't think me harsh. This is a terrible tragedy for all concerned. However, why do people these days expect 'support'?

My mother had 7 children very close together. I'm sure some must have been in nappies at the same time. She had a violent, feckless, alcoholic husband who gave her money when he felt like it. Her family were in another country and she had no friends really in this country. We had no bathroom, an outside toilet, no washing machine. She did it all, alone with no 'support'. This lady made a mistake, never dreaming this would happen. It's awful for all concerned.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, whatever reason this Mum left these young children alone, she has suffered the worst tragedy that could happen to a parent and has to carry with her the guilt of this for the rest of her life.

I feel sorry for her and those sweet children.

Taking care of one small child is difficult enough. How she managed with four is hard to imagine.
It sounds as though the house was dirty but the boys themselves were not ill-treated. Perhaps that was why she wasn't a priority for social services.
If an animal is deemed to be at risk, the police can force their way in to a house. Shouldn't the same be the case where children are involved?

Nanicky

I can say honestly hand on my heart, if I thought my grandkids were in danger of neglect and I was being refused access, I would kick the door down, yes the Police would come, and I'd kick up such a fuss.
Maybe then the authorities would see with their own eyes the devastation and mess before them... And to hell with the consequences for me. Children come first.

Absolutely agree, Nanicky. Well done for saying so. Too many people just think the best of people which is all well and good but, in some cases such as this one, gut instinct and action is what's needed.

Barleyfields

A very sad story. A woman who was wrong to leave her children alone, yes, but who clearly couldn’t cope. I can’t begin to imagine being in her shoes. Her real sentence is having to live with this terrible tragedy for the rest of her life.

Couldn't cope but could immediately come up with a story to cover the fact she'd left them alone. Able to cope protecting herself.

Just so sad - for those poor little boys and for her,too. She’s not going to have a happy life after this. I don’t know how she coped when they were all in nappies but they look happy in that photo.