If you have not made a will or PoA

My certified documents for husband’s POA arrived back today. 6 weeks start to finish. Another job well done.

Agree that "if people are out to cheat they will cheat" and they don't have to have any official position so to say to do so.

I was horrified recently when I got introduced to someone for one little paid type of task (ie supervising me attempting to re-learn to drive - as I did have a driving licence from way back when that I'd never actually used so to say) and it was Lockdown and so everything was very difficult (ie driving instructors refusing to take me on as a non mask-wearer etc etc).

So he also volunteered his (paid) services to do minor DIY type jobs for me etc. I had little suspicions (ie when I looked for something in my garden the day after he'd done work there and it wasnt there - he brought it back, pleading he'd thought a crystal was a stone and kept it in his pocket and took it home "by accident"). He said I'd miscalculated the amount of cash I'd handed him to pay for his services as "unofficial taxi driver" (I rather doubt that in hindsight - as it's something I've never done to my knowledge anywhere else).

The final act was he asked to "borrow the hard drive off my old computer I'd just replaced for a few hours" and I can't remember what excuse he made (something about not enough hard drive power for something or other). At that point I saw red and cut contact that second.

So - yep....thieves will try to be thieves and will try and wheedle their way in. It's one thing to think "I'm fed-up with hassle and I'll make my life as easy as I can" and then get on very good terms with your local taxi firm (eg if you're in an area with poor public transport) - but one has to exercise caution over people generally that seem as if they are going to make your life easier for you (ie in case they have ulterior motives).

One thinks "If they're going to try and steal then how come they're trying to do so from someone without much money - they could at least restrict their activities to the rich and not ordinary people in the street like us". But these people don't mix with the rich - and so they target us "ordinary people in the street" - as they know us...

As Monica has said, sadly there will always be people, who are untrustworthy in life, whether involving POAs or not.

What about those you leave behind, Gentleshores, are you happy with the consequences of leaving others to deal with your your affairs and the problems which arise?
I remember some of your previous posts, regarding your health. What if you deteriorate and you have no-one to be your advocate. Thank goodness, I trust my DH and children implicitly.
Never say, never. We don't know what is around the corner.

gentleshores Sadly if people are out to cheat, they will cheat, whether they have an LPA or not.

If you have no relatives or friend you can trust, do you have friends or neighbours. Failing that, then social servoces or lawyers,

I suppose you can live a life where evryone you know is totall untrustworthy, but, you would would be very unfortunate to be in that position.

Yes, I have trusted in people who were not trustworthy, and seen others have that problem but generally the people in my life are trustworthy, not just family, but friends as well.

It's bringing back bad memories. I can see the purpose of an LPA. As for not trusting anyone - as I mentioned earlier - what if you don't have many people in your life and no family or relatives?

M0nica

gentleshores you do not need a POA in order to abuse someone financially. It can be done quite simply by anyone trusted by the person concerned. I ran my uncle's life for e year before he decided to give me a POA. He spoke to the bank and they accepted cheques with my signature and would have signed anything I presented him with. I could, had I wanted to, walked off with all his money. The maint thing was he trusted me and would do anything I asked. In my case I never took any advantage of him., but plenty of people in my position have not played fair.

If you think an attorney is cheating the person they represent, then report it to the Court of Protection that looks after these matter. You should speak first to someone like Citizen's Advice or Age UK and they should be able to tell you what to do.

In the meanwhile you would need to keep a diary of everything you know has been done that breaches the power of attorney, this would include putting bank accounts in joint names and failing to ensure the person concerned gets everything they need.

If you have someone has a power of attorney, they can be taken before the Court of Protection to justify how the money has been spent and all their actions. If you do not have power of attorney, it is far less easy to bring someone who claims to be doing their best for someone, when they are just exploiting them to book. A POA imposes legal restrictions and a supervising specialist court.

All the things you mention an attorney did would be sanctioned and the person removed as attorney - but someone needs to file acomplaint in the first place.

Thank you. In theory yes, but it's very difficult to prove!

We have wills and POAs in place, but it’s recently been suggested to me that I should make myself a signatory or joint holder of the utilities and insurance accounts currently in DH’s name to ensure that they aren’t abruptly terminated on his death, should he die before me. That had never occurred to me. Is it usual practice?

gentleshores you do not need a POA in order to abuse someone financially. It can be done quite simply by anyone trusted by the person concerned. I ran my uncle's life for e year before he decided to give me a POA. He spoke to the bank and they accepted cheques with my signature and would have signed anything I presented him with. I could, had I wanted to, walked off with all his money. The maint thing was he trusted me and would do anything I asked. In my case I never took any advantage of him., but plenty of people in my position have not played fair.

If you think an attorney is cheating the person they represent, then report it to the Court of Protection that looks after these matter. You should speak first to someone like Citizen's Advice or Age UK and they should be able to tell you what to do.

In the meanwhile you would need to keep a diary of everything you know has been done that breaches the power of attorney, this would include putting bank accounts in joint names and failing to ensure the person concerned gets everything they need.

If you have someone has a power of attorney, they can be taken before the Court of Protection to justify how the money has been spent and all their actions. If you do not have power of attorney, it is far less easy to bring someone who claims to be doing their best for someone, when they are just exploiting them to book. A POA imposes legal restrictions and a supervising specialist court.

All the things you mention an attorney did would be sanctioned and the person removed as attorney - but someone needs to file acomplaint in the first place.

The court won’t decide who should be your attorney. Someone would apply to the court for appointment, at considerable expense. It’s just a paper exercise. You’re more protected by having chosen someone yourself.

In the case of a health and welfare LPA, you have to set your wishes out in it so there’s no question of the attorney not knowing.

Having power of attorney does not allow someone to add their name to your bank account.

You seem to have no trust in anyone, sadly. You should discuss this with a solicitor, who can perhaps reassure you. Otherwise you leave yourself wide open to grooming by someone with an eye to the main chance as you become more frail and vulnerable, as we do with age. Your choice.

Also some people can use a POA to undermine the terms of a Will. Cases where the person with POA has made a joint account with the person. In that situation, only HALF the money in the account becomes part of the estate. The other half is owned by the POA holder and is excluded by the estate. This can happen without POA as well I know.

Or they don't spend things on the person because they want to maximise the estate at the time of death.

What alternatives are there to POA? I think a living will is a bit limited isn't it? But it might cover the health aspect.

There were two incidences of abuse I'm aware of in family. My poor relative had her son as one - he had a debit card and complete control of her bank account - while she was not able to buy a thing for herself or even go out anywhere. Power can corrupt people.

So what if you don't have anyone in your life you can appoint as an attorney? If it needs to be someone completely trustworthy and you don't really have many relatives? In that case it might be better if the court decides. Not everyone has children or many living relatives.

And what if the attorney doesn't know what your wishes would be? Even if they do, social services can sometimes insist someone is moved to a care home.

People can also be groomed and robbed by apparently well meaning friends and neighbours who gain their confidence little by little, until they are doing the shopping, keeping the credit card, eventually convincing the person to make a will in their favour. If you have loved ones and refuse to make a LPA you will be causing them huge problems and expense if you become incapable of managing your affairs. As you have acknowledged, you don’t have to develop dementia, you could have a stroke or a fall which causes catastrophic brain injury but leaves you alive yet totally incapable. Have you considered what would happen then?

All control taken away. Not everyone has dementia.

I knew my parents were making a mistake with the legal advice they were given and it broke my heart seeing my Father die the way he did.

There are so many stories. One sibling with POA moves the parent and won't let the other siblings see the parent.

M0nica

gentleshores

Will done but I am never ever doing a POA. It can cause havoc in families and grief to the person involved when all the siblings fall out. Had a very bad experience of that.

I am sorry you had such a bad experience but it is not the norm. My experence of POAs is that they make life so much easier and clearer. The people named on the POA make the decsions and that is that.

I have twice had to deal with family members who did not make them in advance, and both caused difficulties. I ended up having to ring round a large family to find their take on end of life care for someone, reconcile the different views and write the document, go through a very dodgy decision that 2 people wtih dementia were compos mentes, for just long enough to make rational decisions about a POA, anothe possibility for fraud, even though a solicitor was present. They weren't but we all agreed they were.

If a family fight over a POA, they will fight even more if someone does not have one and then becomes incapacitated.

Thanks. Yes I know the process if you don't have one :-) If you have one then the person or people you appoint have to be 100% trustworthy. Sadly older people can be vulnerable and trust and not see the pitfalls. And end up with their wishes being ignored. How? Because if the POA kicks in they are already deemed to need someone to sort things for them. Unfortunately when money is involved, some people can do awful things. Some people don't care as much about their parents as they should. If you can't trust ALL of your children or they don't get on, then it's better to have the court appoint someone to deal with your affairs.

A situation can arise where the person is no longer able to deal with financial affairs, but is compus mentis enough to decide their care. Except they are ill and vulnerable and easily pressurised.

I don’t know, but would hope that ‘palliative care only’ means that you are kept hydrated, comfortable and as free from pain as possible, but without active treatment to prolong life. Someone else will know better than I do.

CariadAgain

I've no plans for my funeral and no "power of attorney" thing set-up (NB; single and childless and no pets) and can see the possible disadvantages of having a POA - ie they might make different decisions about me to what I would make.

I've told everyone that might conceivably ever have any involvement if it came to it that I am never going to go into a home/never want to be "revived" if I have the family heart attack. Everyone has been told that basically I intend to not have anyone else making decisions on my behalf - in case they're different to what I would decide on.

It will depend, to some extent, on the circumstances of the person concerned. I live on my own/no pets/no responsibilities of any description and would be very "anti" anyone doing anything that prolonged my life on Earth (ie quite happy to be in "Heaven" instead sipping virtual champagne at a "Welcome Home" party and feeling glad I wasn't there any longer personally to watch/feel effects of my society sliding downwards even further).

I think that's all I can really do in the circumstances I have personally and I expect - come the time - it'll be a case of "Havent seen any sign of Cariad for a few days - better get the police to break into her house to check.....". Followed by it will be too late (thankfully) for anyone to start thinking in terms of putting me in a home/reviving me/grabbing an organ off me for organ donation/etc. So I see it as the best way to arrange for things for myself to leave things like that personally. I don't want other people interfering with my decisions I've made for myself - even if they are well-intentioned. I've had rows with people before now who've insisted they'd feel they "had" to revive me from that family heart attack if it comes to it - and they can't/won't seem to see that it's MY decision and not anyone else's.

If you have no health and welfare p of a set up and you lose mental capacity medics WILL make decisions based on what THEY think is right and that is likely be efforts to prolong your life. A week before he died my dad was hospitalised with an infection -I didn't have health p of a for him and the medics insisted on trying to make him better (despite him having advanced heart and kidney failure). They even put him through the trauma of a kidney scan. I had to really fight to convince them he wanted to go home even if that did shorten his life - which would have only been for a very short while anyway

So yep...I do see it's an issue and I don't see how to resolve it personally.

I know my father eventually put "DNR" on his records - basically he didnt want yet another heart attack and brought back to "life" yet again. I know that when I found my mother was in hospital one time (ie elsewhere in the country) when I didnt get an expected phonecall from her = I rang the hospital and got told bad pneumonia etc and "She took the tablets we gave her to start with and now she's refusing them". I had no official "powers" - but they'd clicked I'm eldest child and husband couldnt have a say (courtesy of dementia) but I obviously didnt have that and was "next in line" person to ask. So I was able to say "Do whatever she tells you she wants. If she wants the tablets give them to her. If she doesnt want them - then dont give them to her. She's made her decision plain to you - so do that".

Way back I had a "living will" and then I realised that it looked like it might create problems of them trying to follow that awful "Pathway" (whatever it's called again). "Liverpool Pathway" I think?????

I've read some awful tales of people being denied food and drink and how painful it is to starve to death.

Felt like a distinct muddle as to just how to say "No active treatment" on the one hand v. "Do NOT put me on that Pathway - I am going to have food and drink whatever" on the other hand. I landed up feeling distinctly confused as to how to ensure my wishes would be abided by exactly so to say....and couldnt figure out how to have an absolute exact step-by-step set of instructions for them and make it plain they darn well will follow them to the letter on the other hand.

Have you made a ‘living will’, given a copy to your doctor and asked for your wishes to be placed on your medical records? Otherwise, if you lose mental capacity and are unable to express your wishes, whatever you may have told friends will be ignored by the medical professionals and social services, as your friends have no legal standing in the matter, so doctors will try to keep you alive and social services may arrange for you to be admitted to a home.

I've no plans for my funeral and no "power of attorney" thing set-up (NB; single and childless and no pets) and can see the possible disadvantages of having a POA - ie they might make different decisions about me to what I would make.

I've told everyone that might conceivably ever have any involvement if it came to it that I am never going to go into a home/never want to be "revived" if I have the family heart attack. Everyone has been told that basically I intend to not have anyone else making decisions on my behalf - in case they're different to what I would decide on.

It will depend, to some extent, on the circumstances of the person concerned. I live on my own/no pets/no responsibilities of any description and would be very "anti" anyone doing anything that prolonged my life on Earth (ie quite happy to be in "Heaven" instead sipping virtual champagne at a "Welcome Home" party and feeling glad I wasn't there any longer personally to watch/feel effects of my society sliding downwards even further).

I think that's all I can really do in the circumstances I have personally and I expect - come the time - it'll be a case of "Havent seen any sign of Cariad for a few days - better get the police to break into her house to check.....". Followed by it will be too late (thankfully) for anyone to start thinking in terms of putting me in a home/reviving me/grabbing an organ off me for organ donation/etc. So I see it as the best way to arrange for things for myself to leave things like that personally. I don't want other people interfering with my decisions I've made for myself - even if they are well-intentioned. I've had rows with people before now who've insisted they'd feel they "had" to revive me from that family heart attack if it comes to it - and they can't/won't seem to see that it's MY decision and not anyone else's.

Planned funerals are all for the living, the actual funeral is for the living.

I think it is very selfish to present your children with a packaged deal. You do not know how they will feel, they do not know how they will feel, in the aftermath of your death.

I have complete plans for my funeral, they make me feel very happy and content. I have also given my children instructions to ignore them once I have died and do whatever will give them most consolation - and if that means putting my corpse out with the black bins, so be it.

I wanted to pay for a cremation only as I thought it would be easier for my daughter. Due to estrangement from my son his choice I never saw it coming . And everything will fall on my daughter's shoulders so I told her I wanted to do this . She told me no she wants a funeral so said ok I will pay for it up front again she said no. Keep your money it will be my responsibility when you die mom but you can't die for 20 years as you need to see the boys grow up. So doing my best to full fill her wish.

That's why my will was changed in 2020 and took out both lasting powers of attorney and why I had to do extra things to safe guard my will from being contested. Including getting a letter which cost me £40 from my GP stating my disability is physical and I am not mentally ill and of sound mind . But my son will never know when I die as there is no need for him to know .

If you have no one your solicitor can be your executor and be your attorney for both lasting powers of attorney. You just have to write down all your wishes for your funeral and when and what actions you want taken if the lasting powers of attorney are needed to come into force. It has to be in minute detail but it's your only course of action if you have no one . Solicitors are used to acting for people in this situation.