Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

kittylester

As I started this thread, I thought I would update on DGS's progress. He has been offered 3 positions and taken the one he really wanted. His starting salary will be £24k.

Now, back to the A Levels.

Lovely!

As I started this thread, I thought I would update on DGS's progress. He has been offered 3 positions and taken the one he really wanted. His starting salary will be £24k.

Now, back to the A Levels.

The snobbery around universities is ridiculous and in my experience quite often seems to come from people who weren't university educated themselves. I am not sure why?
I'm fairly sure . I see it as the same line of thinking that objects to more people going to university at all. In both cases the objectors are used to being part of an elite, based on the scarcity value of their qualifications (or experience) and resent that elitism being threatened by the scarcity being reduced, and (shock, horror!) being offered to children of the working classes who might not be able to afford to study far from home or pay high fees up front. The same thinking can be seen in those whose own children are safely ensconced in well-paid 'graduate' roles but believe that other people's children should reconsider getting degrees and benefiting from networks etc that go with that territory.

They are all behind the times anyway, as degrees are no longer a passport to a lifetime of jobs in management or similar. We are moving towards a situation where (as is often mentioned on threads like these) people with degrees have to show other attributes to get a foot on that ladder, and in any case AI will change things in very unpredictable ways. Traditional professions and those with 'knowledge-based' occupations have a good chance to be the ones who lose out most, whilst artisans and tradespeople whose roles cannot be replicated by AI will become the new secure middle class. A machine can't cut your hair in a way that will suit your face, or find a way of building a cupboard that fits exactly where you want it and opens such that it suits your family's particular requirements. Machines can (or will be able to) do accounts, check the legality of situations or contracts - even medical diagnoses and operations will soon be carried out by AI.

How that will all play out remains to be seen, but the idea that higher education is simply a passport to employment seems very short-sighted. We will need people who can think, communicate well and understand complex situations; but those whose expertise relies on remembering large numbers of facts or processes might find themselves going the way of Victorian clerks.

Because students find an employer and then commit to the course for several years - maybe 5 yrs, it’s similar to a professional qualification that a new worker would get with experience in that trade. The difference is it’s called a “degree”, all apprenticeships require commitment you can’t dip in and out. There is no reason you can’t change employer if you don’t get on, but the student has to finish the course.

I use the word “trade” widely, it could be a clerk upgrading to an accountant, an estate agent or a banker as much as a labourer qualifying as an electrician or plumber.

The biggest obstacle to previous schemes has been lack of commitment and the amount of supervision students need if the employer is paying them.

I’m sure many of our generation did similar training, you got a job at 16 as a junior, you attended evening classes or day release, maybe a year or two at college, then took professional qualifications to whatever level you got to.

Doodledog

I assume that they will find institutions near the workplace, so that students can get to university and to work from wherever they are living.

There is no point in having the tuition in Cambridge if the company (and place of work of the apprentice) is in Carlisle. This is where Polys came into their own, and why the courses that they offered (and now offer as universities) are often better regarded than those offered on a theoretical basis in 'traditional' universities.

I agree.
If your apprenticeship is (for example) business related you would be better studying at a university with that ethos and specialism. The snobbery around universities is ridiculous and in my experience quite often seems to come from people who weren't university educated themselves. I am not sure why?

As I have said before if you have met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism.
Talk of a "special gift" is pretty offensive to the families coping with children who are (for example) non-verbal, with distressing patterns of behaviour.
My grandson with autism is friendly, chatty and very sociable. He would like to work caring for older people, but he does not have the conceptual ability to understand when a situation could potentially be difficult or dangerous.
There are no generalisations to be made here.

Thanks Macadia for you kind thoughts but it is difficult for my grandson to to think of his autism as a gift when he has been bullied and teased by his peers all his life. He is desperate to be thought of as “normal”.

I assume that they will find institutions near the workplace, so that students can get to university and to work from wherever they are living.

There is no point in having the tuition in Cambridge if the company (and place of work of the apprentice) is in Carlisle. This is where Polys came into their own, and why the courses that they offered (and now offer as universities) are often better regarded than those offered on a theoretical basis in 'traditional' universities.

I read on Mumsnet that these degree apprenticeships are very sought after and difficult to get, but the employers do not always choose a top tier university for their apprentices.

Sometimes, they choose the lower tier universities, ie the former polytechnics.

No. Loans cover/contribute to living expenses too. However it is a huge amount, hence my comments about degrees actually setting people up to earn enough to repay their loans.
The trouble is that if employers discriminate against graduates from some universities without understanding why they are doing it, and in spite of accreditation from professional bodies, then graduates who have proven themselves acceptable to the professional body risk being unable to repay those loans.

Something of a vicious circle, eh?

Oh, I see. Thank you Barleyfields

Macadia

OhOhOh

Scale of student loans in England
Currently £20 billion per year is loaned to around 1.5 million higher education students in England. The value of outstanding loans at the end of March 2024 reached £236 billion. The Government forecasts the value of outstanding loans to reach around £500 billion (2023‑24 prices) by the late-2040s.

The forecast average debt among the cohort of borrowers who started their course in 2022/23 is £45,600 when they complete their course. Forecast debt is expected to be lower for those starting in the reformed system from 2023/24 at £43,700.

*The Government forecasts that around 65% of full-time undergraduates starting in 2023/24 would repay them in full.*

£20 billion per year is loaned? Does that mean the Uni charges the government £20 billion per year in exchange for producing taxpayers?

No. Loans cover/contribute to living expenses too. However it is a huge amount, hence my comments about degrees actually setting people up to earn enough to repay their loans.

Macadia
One of my daughters is autistic. She works for a multinational company. She is the lead on a multinational team that test the computer program in situ after the web developer has built it.

She set up a group of other employees doing the same job where they could all voice their problems. Because problems there are because most autistics come at problem solving with a different brain. That’s not always popular with the next person up in the chain of command if that person doesn’t understand autistcs.

OhOhOh

Scale of student loans in England
Currently £20 billion per year is loaned to around 1.5 million higher education students in England. The value of outstanding loans at the end of March 2024 reached £236 billion. The Government forecasts the value of outstanding loans to reach around £500 billion (2023‑24 prices) by the late-2040s.

The forecast average debt among the cohort of borrowers who started their course in 2022/23 is £45,600 when they complete their course. Forecast debt is expected to be lower for those starting in the reformed system from 2023/24 at £43,700.

*The Government forecasts that around 65% of full-time undergraduates starting in 2023/24 would repay them in full.*

£20 billion per year is loaned? Does that mean the Uni charges the government £20 billion per year in exchange for producing taxpayers?

Greenfinch

My grandson is trying for apprenticeships in business or finance. He is finding it hard going especially as he won’t admit to his autism. He never has wanted to admit to it and says it would go against him. His twin sister on the other hand has applied to university to do Fine Art and so far has been accepted at three ( they ask for a merit in her diploma) without an interview or even submitting her portfolio.

A lot of tech companies view those on the Autism spectrum as assets to their workforce. Perhaps someone told your grandson that Autism is a disability and so he doesn't know that having a neurodiverse way of thinking can be a gift and an advantage. He will be successful at whatever he puts his mind to. I hope the same for his sister.

Evolutions take thousands of years.

True Foxie
In fact I worry more about my super bright DGS who gets straight As.
He is quite naive and immature in some ways so may or may not thrive at uni.

DD who eventually went to FE college to do her vocational course, which she loved, had already been to Aberdeen uni for a degree in Spanish and Linguistics. She dropped out partly due to boredom. It wasn't for her at all.

Well said, foxie.

I think that many people don't realise that some of the newer universities do a fantastic job of opening up possibilities for young people who by "traditional" standards have not thrived in the education system. They also offer a range of highly vocational degrees that give people entry into new and developing industries.
A woman interviewed on radio yesterday had started a highly successful clothing company, she has a degree from the University of Lancashire in Fashion Promotion and marketing. She credits some of her success to the help that she got from fellow graduates as well as the skills she learned on her course. My daughter's partner has a degree and masters in music technology from a new uni. He is working with AI and it's use in music and is linked up to several international and British universities as his work is unique. As I said in a previous post , "all education takes place under the long shadow of work" Bowles and Gintis. However, degree courses don't have to have a specific vocational focus to develop students for their place in society, education IMO offers so much more than that whatever the subject studied.

Ah well. I'll never know the reasoning for freezing out graduates from universities not on the 'respectable' list, and have no choice but to put it down to snobbery. I was willing to engage and listen, but I'm not really surprised that you can't come up with any rationale other than 'just because', as IMO there just isn't one.

I’m not going to engage further in this pointless discussion Doodledog . I have stated my stance on the value of some degrees from some universities. I look for value in terms of ability to obtain jobs with salaries sufficient to repay loans. I don’t value the enjoyment factor for the student unless they are entirely self-funding, in which case they can study whatever and wherever they want. You and I will never agree on this so I am bowing out.

Fine, but you still haven't answered my questions, even those in my post directly above yours. On what basis do you write off universities and course as inferior?

If people are applying to work for you (am I right in assuming you were a lawyer) they wouldn't have studied puppetry, yet you still say that unless they had X grade from Y university their qualifications and experience are effectively useless.

I'm just asking you to justify that stance, and have given numerous examples of reasons why I disagree with it. It would be good to see you answer at least some of them.

I have not deliberately avoided your questions Doodledog. We were given a few examples above of very niche degree courses which are unlikely to end in many people holding such degrees obtaining employment which will enable them to repay their loans. I am not one who subscribes to the idea that people should study what they enjoy, regardless of whether it has a good chance of leading to a job which will repay their debt. If students were self-supporting I wouldn’t care about what they studied - but the vast majority of UK students reading for a first degree are funded by the taxpayer.

Barleyfields

I was an employer Doodledog. I have studied a good many cvs. I believe that gives me some perspective.

Maybe, but unless you tell us what it is that leads you to believe that some courses are ‘crap’, we will never be able to see that perspective for what it is. As I keep saying, I am interested in why the number of points required to get onto a course is so important to you, as that is the only metric I have seen you mention.

Do you believe that people stagnate at 18, or that this is the point at which their future promise can be assessed for the rest of their lives?

I have often said that it is better for people to move away to go to university, and you seem to be agreeing with that when you will only rate certain institutions as being ‘reputable’. Are you saying that those who can’t afford to live far from home should be forever deemed inferior? Are you aware that large areas of the UK have little no choice of university- people go to the one option or move away altogether? Pragmatics have to be considered in a lot of cases, surely?

You do seem to be deliberately avoiding my questions and expecting me to believe that you know because you know. That is something that all graduates I have taught (in whichever university) learn not to accept.

I was an employer Doodledog. I have studied a good many cvs. I believe that gives me some perspective.

Doodledog

I don't know anything about stand-up comedy or puppet design and performance. Is there a PB for those disciplines? Equity?

I am genuinely interested in finding out why you think that a graduate (not an entrant) to a course that asks BCC is likely to be of a lower quality than one leaving a course where s/he started with AAA at A level at 18, when you have not taken either course or studied the curriculum. Repeating that 'an employer' would choose one over the other is not answering that question, as I'm sure you are aware.

One of the funniest people I knew probably left school at 16, worked as Redcoat, did stand-up comedy and later was a scriptwriter for well-known comedians. Yes, they sdo have scriptwriters.
He always had a ready quip. 😁

I can't really see how comedy can be taught - someone either has it, a ready wit, or not.