Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

My nephew, now in his mid fifties did an engineering apprenticeship with Marconi.
He has had a very successful career and is well known in his particular field.
Good luck to your grandson. He has an excellent work ethic and deserves to do well, which I'm sure he will.

Tbh I think it all depends on how much competition there is for places as to how much a student needs to "sell" themself when applying. Some degree courses are highly competitive as are some degree apprenticeships. Good luck to your grandson, he's clearly doing well at school and it certainly helps.

My granddaughter is in the first year of an engineering degree apprenticeship with BMW. She did a gap year first, so had no additional help from the school. She just got on with applying online, with various stages to get through before a real life group session. Quite adventurous for a girl, but she is fearless.

Her brother is hedging his bets, looking at both universities and apprenticeships, but he is very laid back about it.

Its much harder to get a place on these apprenticeships than a place at uni.....people often try for several years .....but worth it not to qualify with loads of debt and to have earned for the 3 years while training....but very very hard to get a foot in the door

My grandson is trying for apprenticeships in business or finance. He is finding it hard going especially as he won’t admit to his autism. He never has wanted to admit to it and says it would go against him. His twin sister on the other hand has applied to university to do Fine Art and so far has been accepted at three ( they ask for a merit in her diploma) without an interview or even submitting her portfolio.

Degree apprenticeships are an excellent idea. Earn whilst you learn and no student debt. Far too many go to university ‘for the experience’ and end up with a degree which doesn’t get them a job together with a mountain of debt which may end up being written off.

My granddaughter is doing an apprenticeship equivalent to A levels with ARUP and has already been offered a degree apprenticeship by them in project management.

It’s hard work as she has two lots of qualifications going on at the moment but will be finishing them this summer. She started on £22k per annum and has already been given a pay rise. Good going for a just 18 year old.

For anyone interested the National Audit Office offers apprenticeships for different age groups but they are based in London and Newcastle.

I think degree apprenticeships are the way to go rather than having a huge debt. These apprenticeships offer work experience as well so two birds with one stone (sorry).

Greenfinch

My grandson is trying for apprenticeships in business or finance. He is finding it hard going especially as he won’t admit to his autism. He never has wanted to admit to it and says it would go against him. His twin sister on the other hand has applied to university to do Fine Art and so far has been accepted at three ( they ask for a merit in her diploma) without an interview or even submitting her portfolio.

The NAO has a positive attitude to diversity so I suspect other government organisations will have similar programmes.

Greenfinch, sadly these apprenticeships are hard to get. There is a lot of competition and your grandson’s autism may be evident to a potential employer. He would I think do well to admit it so as to explain why he may appear ‘different’. Employers have boxes to tick nowadays and that could work to his advantage.

My Grandson done a apprenticeship in hydraulics engineering. He just turned 20, he has passed the levels he required, he is also doing project management. He loves it, he is in no debt, has his own car, and he enjoys going to work earning good money for his age.

He was also a good student at School, top sets and high GCSE results, uni just was not for him.

My nephew has spent 2 years applying for a degree apprenticeship has had numerous interviews and not been able to secure a place. He is doing part time college courses aswell as doing 2 jobs, so is a hard worker.
He was diagnosed as autistic about 10 years ago and feels this is going against him in interviews.

Thanks for your thoughts Barleyfields. You are absolutely right. He would not interview very well at all although he would be a diligent worker

Many universities have been about “bums on seats” not the aptitude of the student, or employment prospects in that area.
A degree apprenticeship would be intensive study in a specific technical area, not everyone has the aptitude for that type of course.

I don't understand why a good university offering a Fine Art degree wouldn't need to see a portfolio.
I had to have a portfolio (twice - undergraduate and postgraduate) and so did my daughters (again both undergraduate and postgraduate) - none of us did "straight" Fine Art either.
UAL still wants a portfolio. It's in their info (I just had a look).

Barleyfields

Degree apprenticeships are an excellent idea. Earn whilst you learn and no student debt. Far too many go to university ‘for the experience’ and end up with a degree which doesn’t get them a job together with a mountain of debt which may end up being written off.

Do you have figures for this? What is 'far too many', and which measures have been used to collect the data?

Also, why have you put 'for the experience' in inverted commas? It sounds as though you don't value the way in which young people grow up in their time at university in a semi-independent setting (sorry if I have misunderstood).

I think the university experience is very valuable. For many years I saw generations of students come in as immature 18 year olds and leave as confident, mature 21 year olds, after three years of living away from parents, learning how to get along with other people and make decisions for themselves.

It is fair to say that most people grow up between 18 and 21, but IME there was a marked difference between students who go away to university and those who live at home.

The 'experience' is not just about socialising and having fun (although that is valuable too), but about mixing with a range of people in a way that many people never do. I worked in both a prestigious RG university and in a post-92 'new' one, and saw this in a number of ways - people mixing with peers from comprehensive schools for the first time, people realising that 'talking posh' does not necessarily equate to talking sense, people making friends with others from very different cultures and so on. By no means everyone gets the opportunity to do that if they stay at home - the chances are they will mix with people like themselves, both at home and at work.

The debt side of things is, IMO, a shame. I would like to see free education to the point where people can take advantage of it (ie if someone is qualified for, and accepted on a course they should be able to study on it) so that the population is made up of people educated to their potential. As you say, however, some debt is written off, which IMO is fine if this is because people haven't earned enough to pay despite working for many years - some lines of work are horribly underpaid. If, OTOH, people take a university place and then don't work, the debt should remain, and ways should be found to reclaim it.

I think the concept of 'degree apprenticeships' is interesting. I know nothing about them from an educational perspective, but the very fact that they are being so obviously flagged as 'degree equivalent' shows that we are still not recognising trades and 'hands-on' work as being as valuable as graduate work. I think that correcting that would be a good way forward.

I do hope your grandson finds exactly what will suit him.
I think we worry rather unnecessarily about career choices though as few of us end up in the narrow area we may have specialised in at 18.

I do however know a chilhood friend of my daughter's who is neurodiverse and knew (at about age 6) what he loved - and is doing pretty much exactly that!

If he wants this badly then I think he'll get there in the end kittylester.
🤞

Doodledog - good post.
I agree entirely.
I also think that living at home whilst studying at BA level is a mistake. I'd encourage everyone to strike out somewhere else!

Doodledog, ‘growing up’ at university at the taxpayers’ expense and studying for a degree which is very unlikely to land you a job which enables you to repay your debt is not, to me, acceptable. I know you would like free tertiary education but that won’t be affordable any time soon so we have to work with what is available. Young people can mix with others from different backgrounds and learn how to negotiate life in the world of work. I suspect that if your experience has been (mostly) obtained in an RG university you have come across more able and dedicated students than some of those who scrape into an ex-poly.

Barleyfields if the "ex-poly" universities went back to the excellent work they used to do and stopped being all things to all people, I think we'd all be better off.

The teacher training colleges used to excellent in their own right as well and they took dedicated students who wanted to learn the best ways to teach and had a career in teaching in their minds.
Now (and for many years) teaching is a one year add on - often taken by people who don't know what they want to do (it seems to me).

I should have said that as well as the things I listed, DGS3 is having driving lessons and has to cope with his doting Grandparents checking how things are going.

He has been offered 2 positions up to now but neither are his preferred options. He has had 4 interviews up to now and at least 3 more to come.

A friend of his is doing an accountancy apprenticeship and really enjoying it. DH 's father did articles in accountancy - he (or his parents) had to pay (in guineas).

People don't 'scrape' into new universities. Much depends on the course, but particularly industry-based courses in new universities are often very much in demand.

Many people (young and old) can't mix with people from a range of backgrounds at work. They live in housing surrounded by people of a similar income bracket, and the workplace keeps them in proximity with others of the same grade as they are.

I don't see why free education is not affordable. In most cases students are taught as an adjunct to the research that brings in the money to a department. Given that graduates typically earn more than non-graduates the cost of teaching them would be likely to be recouped over time without an additional fee. As it is, they pay twice - in higher taxes and in charges on fees.

Do you object to people being educated to A level 'at the taxpayers' expense'? What's the difference, if not? The vast majority of people go on to become taxpayers, so it's more of an advance than a gift anyway.

I worked for a civils company where we took on engineering students doing sandwich courses where students spent a year at uni/poly then a year on site before back to uni for the last two years. We also used to offer them holiday employment and a job when they graduated.

NotSpaghetti

Barleyfields if the "ex-poly" universities went back to the excellent work they used to do and stopped being all things to all people, I think we'd all be better off.

The teacher training colleges used to excellent in their own right as well and they took dedicated students who wanted to learn the best ways to teach and had a career in teaching in their minds.
Now (and for many years) teaching is a one year add on - often taken by people who don't know what they want to do (it seems to me).

I completely agree. The polytechnics and technical colleges provided many opportunities, from secretarial classes to day-release for HND qualifications in many fields to external degree courses and evening classes. Teacher training colleges were for people who knew they wanted to teach. The value of these institutions was vastly underestimated.

Here are some figures Doodledog
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/#:~:text=The%20Government%20forecasts%20that%20around,loan%20repayments%20for%20new%20students.