Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

I don't know anything about stand-up comedy or puppet design and performance. Is there a PB for those disciplines? Equity?

I am genuinely interested in finding out why you think that a graduate (not an entrant) to a course that asks BCC is likely to be of a lower quality than one leaving a course where s/he started with AAA at A level at 18, when you have not taken either course or studied the curriculum. Repeating that 'an employer' would choose one over the other is not answering that question, as I'm sure you are aware.

The taxpayer foots the loan, which may never be repaid. Do you really think that an employer who has a choice between someone with a good degree from an RG university requiring a minimum of AAA for entrance and someone with the same degree from an ex-poly with entrance requirements of, say, BCC is guilty of discrimination if they choose the former candidate?

Which professional body would accredit, say, Stand-up Comedy or Puppet Design and Performance, two of the courses of questionable value mentioned above? To me, a professional body is a body which regulates a profession.

But why would it be the taxpayer who is paying unless there is discrimination from employers. If courses have been validated by External Examiners and accredited by professional bodies, why are people saying that they are 'crap' without further information?

I still haven't had an answer to my question about how people can make judgments about courses they have neither studied nor examined in detail, and if the latter, why they are not taking the word of their professional body that standards are being met.

This is the third time I have asked this, so assume that the lack of an answer means that the question is being evaded, rather than missed.

growstuff

Barleyfields

Absolutely OhOhOh, but the concern I have expressed is whether student loans are ever repaid.

Some individuals value education for something other than its monetary value, which is why summer schools and online courses in all sorts of esoteric subjects are thriving.

Personally, I'd rather pay a few hundred pounds for a quality short course in a subject for which I have a passion than spend money on handbags and shoes. I don't expect the economy to benefit, but they've improved my mental well-being. My choice!

Of course. And so would I. But we would not be asking the taxpayer to fund the course of our choice and gamble on ever getting any repayments, let alone repayment in full.

Nobody employs anyone purely on the basis of teir academic requirments. They employ them for a mix of appropriate educational requirements, experience and personal characteristics, based on a whole raft of assessment methods.

As an employer, I have both turned down well qualified people for jobs because they lacked the personal characteristics we were looking for and employed people with fewer education achievements because they would fit in as members of the team.

It's difficult to access the value of one degree course against another but it is important to think about the level of debt incurred by different sorts of students. Students from better off families will usually leave with a lower level of debt, they are also more likely to get into Russell group universities and on to courses that lead to the most prestigious careers. there's lots of evidence to support this so I'm not posting a link.
So poorer students are hit in lots of different ways meaning they will probably take longer to repay any student loans they have, their debts will be higher and they are less likely to earn big salaries. Also, student loans are far from cheap money and the interest keeps ticking along. Regardless of what people think the student loans company are quite persistent in wanting their money back if the student has an income above the threshold. It's no wonder that degree apprenticeships are so competitive. Students from poorer backgrounds have a lot of disadvantages and a huge debt hanging round their necks is just another one.

Barleyfields

Absolutely OhOhOh, but the concern I have expressed is whether student loans are ever repaid.

Some individuals value education for something other than its monetary value, which is why summer schools and online courses in all sorts of esoteric subjects are thriving.

Personally, I'd rather pay a few hundred pounds for a quality short course in a subject for which I have a passion than spend money on handbags and shoes. I don't expect the economy to benefit, but they've improved my mental well-being. My choice!

Scale of student loans in England
Currently £20 billion per year is loaned to around 1.5 million higher education students in England. The value of outstanding loans at the end of March 2024 reached £236 billion. The Government forecasts the value of outstanding loans to reach around £500 billion (2023‑24 prices) by the late-2040s.

The forecast average debt among the cohort of borrowers who started their course in 2022/23 is £45,600 when they complete their course. Forecast debt is expected to be lower for those starting in the reformed system from 2023/24 at £43,700.

The Government forecasts that around 65% of full-time undergraduates starting in 2023/24 would repay them in full.

Barleyfields

Absolutely OhOhOh, but the concern I have expressed is whether student loans are ever repaid.

They don't need to be because the Students Loans Company makes more from interest repayments than capital repayments.

Barleyfields

I have no idea of the course content Allira. I was merely responding to growstuffs post of 14.03.02.

So if you have no idea of the course content, how do you know that nobody has to go to university to obtain such an understanding?

Have you any idea how much advanced maths and physics is involved (as it is, incidentally, in many vocational degrees)?

It is highly unlikely that the vast majority of people (even those who fancy themselves as surfers) have that kind of specialist knowledge.

Absolutely OhOhOh, but the concern I have expressed is whether student loans are ever repaid.

I have no idea of the course content Allira. I was merely responding to growstuffs post of 14.03.02.

But so long as the student is paying for that course, surely have a right to study whatever subject they choose Barleyfields? I was surprised to see that Horology was included on a list of "useless degrees" but, without horologists, our museums and antiques would be lost to future generations.

Barleyfields

Indeed, but nobody has to attend university to obtain such an understanding growstuff.

That shows a lack of understanding of the course content.

Barleyfields

Indeed, but nobody has to attend university to obtain such an understanding growstuff.

So where else do you think they get that specialised understanding? I disagree with you. Maybe you should look in some detail at what is actually taught on the course.

Maybe we should think again about the meaning of success. I remember watching this talk some years ago when I was very low and it changed my own priorities:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtSE4rglxbY

Indeed, but nobody has to attend university to obtain such an understanding growstuff.

Aldom is correct. My question was purely and simply to discuss those university courses; it was not condemnatory of the value of degree or the academic aptitude of the student. It's interesting that it's had to be explained!

David49

Barleyfields

Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you got a first you will probably get headhunted

You are contradicting yourself David, and of course employers are taking on graduates if they consider the particular graduate has the requisite aptitude for the job, and for some positions, especially in professions, a good degree from a good university is required. A crap degree from a crap university will open no doors.

Exactly what I am saying, aptitude, far to many that havn’t got that, and should aim for a vocational qualification call it a degree or whatever you want.

A poor pass from a poor university is a waste of time yet those universities are taking students to fill seats, we need graduates but not in the numbers that are going to university, it’s not about the dreams of the students, much more important is what the economy needs.
The economy needs more workers at skilled technical level

Given that students now pay for their own courses, don't you think they have a right to study something for which they have a passion, but is not necessarily what the economy needs?

Yes, the economy needs more people at skilled technical level, but it doesn't mean that those people are without creativity and imagination (hopefully).

Maybe it surprises you that a former student of furniture and interior design at the Royal College of Art is now one of the UK's richest people.

Thanks growstuff.

It was not my DC who took those courses as they took what might be regarded as 'sensible' degrees, but a couple of their friends did and I must say they have done extremely well with their specialised knowledge.

Allira

^Surfing Science^

Yes. I do know someone who took this course (BSc Hons) and has had a very successful career working around the world and then set up his own very successful surf school.
The course isn't just learning how to surf. 🏄‍♂️

I agree with you on that on Allira. I've never really understood why it's used as an example of a "useless" course. An understanding tides and the way the sea works is invaluable not only to surfers, but to coastguards, the RNLI and river pilots, etc.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Allira I have read the post to which you refer and cannot see anything 'dismissive' in the question. It's just a question, up for discussion/answer.
Good to hear examples of how these degree courses have worked out for students /employers.

The tone was dismissive of those degrees of not having value.

What did my post imply Allira? I simply asked "Does anyone think that these university degree courses are worth pursuing and of value to both the student and potential employer?" and you responded that you knew of 2 that were. What other implication have you erroneously drawn from a simple question?