Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

OhOhOh

Indeed not Barleyfields. I would imagine that any employer would choose an applicant, who has both academic and practical knowledge to offer would be first choice in any recruitment process.

Well yes. But an applicant can have practical and academic knowledge to offer if they have passed a degree that has been accredited by the relevant professional body. That is the point of accreditation. A level scores are by no means the best indicator of how students progress. They measure a very different set of skills from those required at undergraduate level (and different again from postgrad requirements). Also, not all students are geographically mobile. Some go to their nearest university for all sorts of reasons. The A level requirements of a course says little or nothing about the calibre of a graduate. It can say a lot about social class at 18, however; so if people are trying to screen out 'the lower orders' then looking at the institution and A level grades is as good a way as any.

I would still like to know on what basis people feel able to dismiss courses they have not taken. A level requirements 'not inspiring confidence' doesn't suggest even a rudimentary understanding of how these things work, and doesn't give much away (perhaps deliberately) about the thought process.

I often suspect that those who are happy to write off young people before even meeting them are either threatened by the fact that they have degrees (and maybe the threatened people don't?) or they are protective of their own qualifications which were gained when their scarcity gave them value that no longer exists. I'm happy to change my mind though, if someone would like to explain.

They went to university before loans but I'm sure the owner of the surf school could easily have paid back any loan. He's a millionaire.

The other person I know worked in film and TV and you may have seen some of the costumes she researched and embroidered in historical films and TV dramas. Of course, as these courses cover far more than OhOhOh would imply, many skills learnt on the courses are transferable to other industries.

Have they paid back their loans?

Hand Embroidery

Yes. Worked in Costume design in film and TV.

Surfing Science

Yes. I do know someone who took this course (BSc Hons) and has had a very successful career working around the world and then set up his own very successful surf school.
The course isn't just learning how to surf. 🏄‍♂️

How many people studying courses such as OhOhOh names are likely to get jobs in those fields (they seem unlikely to learn transferable skills) or, more to the point, ever repay their loans?

Does anyone think that these university degree courses are worth pursuing and of value to both the student and potential employer?

Stand-Up Comedy
Psychology of Fashion
Hand Embroidery
Floral Design
Viticulture and Oenology (wines)
Surfing Science
Puppetry Design and Performance

Good post David.

Barleyfields

^Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you got a first you will probably get headhunted^

You are contradicting yourself David, and of course employers are taking on graduates if they consider the particular graduate has the requisite aptitude for the job, and for some positions, especially in professions, a good degree from a good university is required. A crap degree from a crap university will open no doors.

Exactly what I am saying, aptitude, far to many that havn’t got that, and should aim for a vocational qualification call it a degree or whatever you want.

A poor pass from a poor university is a waste of time yet those universities are taking students to fill seats, we need graduates but not in the numbers that are going to university, it’s not about the dreams of the students, much more important is what the economy needs.
The economy needs more workers at skilled technical level

I would say that he made a very sensible and mature decision OhOhOh. Didn’t follow the herd. Well done.

Indeed not Barleyfields. I would imagine that any employer would choose an applicant, who has both academic and practical knowledge to offer would be first choice in any recruitment process.

Seeing on a cv a poor degree from a university whose entrance requirements are mediocre A level grades isn’t going to inspire potential employers is it?

My GS knew that he wanted a career in aeronautical engineering and was ready to start applying to universities, with University of Manchester being his preferred choice. He also decided to apply to 3 aviation companies to see if they had any Degree Apprenticeship courses. Two confirmed that they did. He applied at the first available intake, whilst at the same time continuing to process his application for Mechanical, Aerospace and Civil Engineering at Manchester. The apprenticeship application was long, intense and multi level but he succeeded in securing a place with an international aeronautical company. His apprenticeship was for 5 years; included day release at a local university, covered every aspect of engineering from the shop floor up and provided a small salary. 8 years on, he's a highly qualified aeronautical engineer working for Lockheed Aerospace in Fort Worth, Texas. He was the only one of his peer group who did not attend university full time, has zero regrets about his choices or the fact that he has no university fees debt.

I would love to know how people decide what is 'good', 'reputable' or 'crap' when it comes to courses they haven't studied, so if someone would oblige me with an explanation, that would be great.

Every degree course has External Examiners from other universities whose role is to ensure parity across courses and institutions - I was one for years. Professional bodies decide which courses to accredit, and will absolutely withdraw accreditation if they fall below standard. I have posted before about students insisting they are not assessed by presentation, when that is a requirement of the PB accreditation - that sort of thing is a real issue, although the 'anxious' (and often their parents) refuse to understand.

Employers have lists of accredited courses (they usually appear on the PB website) and can check before shortlisting. The whole point of this is that accreditation is a guarantee that the PB have vetted the course and its standards (which happens as well as the External Examiner doing similar) and is satisfied that it meets the professional standards of the organisation, and that all the necessary subject areas are studied and assessed. Accredited courses exist in both old and new universities.

Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you got a first you will probably get headhunted

You are contradicting yourself David, and of course employers are taking on graduates if they consider the particular graduate has the requisite aptitude for the job, and for some positions, especially in professions, a good degree from a good university is required. A crap degree from a crap university will open no doors.

But any employer can require a degree to do anything. Does that make the job a 'graduate job'?

Professions usually have minimum entry qualifications to satisfy professional bodies, but they are usually postgrad specialist ones. Otherwise, it is up to employers. If an employer wants graduates, does that not suggest that it is the much derided (on here) student experience that they are looking for? The ability to think outside the box, and to be able to switch between being independent and working in a team - that sort of thing? It's not likely to be a knowledge of (say) History or Medieval Poetry in itself, but proof that the graduate can concentrate on difficult subject matter, extrapolate what is useful, make comparisons between sources and come up with solutions to both abstract and concrete problems.

Of course many non-graduates have these abilities, but qualifications of any kind are simply proof of ability - the same is true of more vocational areas such as plumbing or electrical work - or even a driving test. Most people would prefer to have their house wired by someone who can prove that they know which wire goes where, just as many employers choose people who can prove that they have studied for three (or more) years to an objectively high level, and that their course included the areas that the relevant professional bodies deem necessary.

The fact that not all graduates get into such work is not the fault of the system. I don't think that having a degree in itself should be a passport to work at a particular level - this was the case when they were thinner on the ground than now, and it blocked progress for many people without the relevant qualifications - they are more of a starting point. After a few years it is achievement 'on the job' that counts anyway.

Doodledog

What do you mean by ‘graduate work’?

Companies are not taking on workers at graduate level, if you get a first in a relevant field you will probably be headhunted.
Otherwise it’s tough, GD wanted to be an Architect got a 2.1 no jobs, tried for a Masters but dropped out, sad because she did work hard. Now doing admin/clerical at a hotel to pay the rent, she will climb the tree somewhere, business qualifications would help a lot.

Jobs that require a degree, perhaps?

I don't know what you mean by graduate jobs either. There's the uni Milk Round, that's highly competitive and employers normally expect good degrees from Russell group unis. There's entry level jobs, some leading to further professional qualifications and there's lots of jobs requiring specialist knowledge obtained through a particular type of degree but there's also lots of jobs that don't actually require a degree but employers sometimes use degrees as a filtering mechanism.
Degrees are not a ticket to good employment it is one aspect of what a person has to offer an employer, success depends on lots of other attributes which tbh some graduates have and others don't have.

Very few people get their dream job at the first attempt at any level. Many young people cruise around the job market for five years of more settling into satisfying and rewarding jobs.

What do you mean by ‘graduate work’?

Of the youngsters that I know the only one that has their dream job is the vocational one, the others despite university, no graduate work.
My guess is that half will find graduate places

David three of my daughter's friends did fashion degrees, one is a buyer for a well known fashion chain, one is living in Amsterdam working for a huge company in charge of quality, the third owns a dress and homewares shop. Another friend who did a history degree at a Russell group uni ( her parents didn't approve of fashion as a degree) is a buyer, again for a well known fashion brand. Fashion is a huge industry, the degree courses are highly vocational and often focused towards different parts of the industry, jobs apart from retailing are very competitive, often poorly paid initially and often based in London. Sorry but I think you may be a bit out of touch.

foxie48

"Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days."
Really? David you have a very different view of young people to the one I have. The ones I know are hard working and ambitious to get on in the world. They worry about debt, worry about getting on the housing ladder and are more inclined to see university as a way of improving their chances in life so are more likely to turn to the vocational degrees than the more esoteric ones. Yes, perhaps some use uni as a chance to have a good time but that has always been the case. I certainly had a good time, so much so I left before the end of my course, completely debt free and had to get my degree later in life at my own expense! Thankfully I eventually grew up and became, IMHO, a pretty useful member of society!

Students dont need to run up a debt of £60k to get a vocational qualification, many start out of degree course where there are simply very few job opportunities when an alternative would have given them a wide choice of employment.

One niece of mine took a degree in fashion, she is the least fashion minded woman you will meet, 3 yrs on, now has a job in a bakery.

A waste of £60k she will never repay a cent, many repeat the same, university entrance should be much tougher.

I agree. Some students have always worked and played hard - as do some people who don't go to university and go straight into a job after school.

These days students soon get kicked out, if they don't deliver academically (whatever they do when they're not studying).