Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

As far as I'm concerned what I've wanted for my children and grandchildren is the opportunity for education to open up opportunities not to shut them down too early

That's the advice I gave my own children. Having academic qualifications keeps doors open. At some point they'll have to go down the path behind the door, but they won't be able to cross the threshold if the door has been shut in their face.

David49

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

Disagree, your first priority should be to be a useful member of society, support yourself and family, the immediate concern is paying the rent.

Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days.

David you are mixing your metaphors. There is no conflict between your first priority and my definition of the purpose of a university education. They are two entirely different things that can, and do, exist together and alongside each other without any conflict.

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

👏🏻👏🏻

Well said.

"Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days."
Really? David you have a very different view of young people to the one I have. The ones I know are hard working and ambitious to get on in the world. They worry about debt, worry about getting on the housing ladder and are more inclined to see university as a way of improving their chances in life so are more likely to turn to the vocational degrees than the more esoteric ones. Yes, perhaps some use uni as a chance to have a good time but that has always been the case. I certainly had a good time, so much so I left before the end of my course, completely debt free and had to get my degree later in life at my own expense! Thankfully I eventually grew up and became, IMHO, a pretty useful member of society!

M0nica

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

Disagree, your first priority should be to be a useful member of society, support yourself and family, the immediate concern is paying the rent.

Going to Uni to have a good time, broadening your horizons, running up an £60k debt and being a parasite is increasingly popular these days.

The purpose of university is not to help you get a job Its purpose is to widenyour knowledge and experience so that you have the flexibility of mind that combined with an extensive knowledge base makes you more capable of adapting to all thechallenges of life.

My DS left his uni (one of the "New" ones) before the end as he decided he'd learned all they could teach him!
Despite us pleading with him to stay on to get the piece of paper.

We worried that it would go against him later on. As far as we know it hasn't. He has worked his way up in the film industry from the very lowest on those endless credits and is now at age 50 a respected film producer who knows as much as anyone about making movies.

His older DB got his good degree but isn't working in that field and does something quite different. They both had loans to repay.

DD went to further education college, free of fees, graduating with a diploma in theatre costume. She worked backstage at the RSC and could have made it her career but decided to marry, have kids and live in rural northern Scotland. Hey ho!
She now has a career as a photographer......

Whatever they choose, I hope they do something that makes them happy and fulfilled if not rich.

Barleyfields

Those who studied for HNDs at technical colleges or polys frequently didn’t have the academic qualifications needed for university entrance, even if the subject was taught. Many were working and studying for their qualification through day release or sandwich courses. A valuable qualification for them, and if their promotion prospects were limited by the lack of a university degree maybe that wasn’t a concern for them.

At my girls' grammar school they didn't like anyone who wasn't going on to teacher training college or to university - with the sole aim of teaching afterwards.

As if that was the only career available for women.

We live in a very different world to the one I was born and educated in. There's a famous sociology duo called Bowles and Gintis who wrote that all education took place "under the long shadow of work" and the idea of "meritocracy" (much discussed in the 60's) was in fact a myth to make the working classes work harder. I'm not a Marxist like they were but comparing the education system of the past without taking into account the needs of the current and future workplace is, IMO, not very helpful. There's far too much snobbery about education especially with regard to degrees. I'm a huge fan of well run apprenticeship degrees and wish more young people had the opportunity to do them. As far as I'm concerned what I've wanted for my children and grandchildren is the opportunity for education to open up opportunities not to shut them down too early and that's not always easily achieved.

Barleyfields

My girls’ grammar school did nothing to prepare pupils for work in the 60s David, only for university.

That is no surprise at all you were destined for university, it’s bad for the school kudos not to go to Uni. Friends who did go to grammar school and left at 16 became high fliers in business. My 19 yr old GS left and went to technical college, very switched on he will be a high flier. He knows what he wants to do and will succeed

Having said that, I am in favour of grammar schools because bright students need to be stretched. I was a failure at 11, at 14 the technical curriculum switched me on and I didn’t look back.

Those who studied for HNDs at technical colleges or polys frequently didn’t have the academic qualifications needed for university entrance, even if the subject was taught. Many were working and studying for their qualification through day release or sandwich courses. A valuable qualification for them, and if their promotion prospects were limited by the lack of a university degree maybe that wasn’t a concern for them.

Allira

Barleyfields

Indeed it did Allira. It was also a system which served very well a lot of people who otherwise would have had nothing more than a very basic education.

Most of the boys I knew (and I say boys because there were very few girls indeed choosing engineering course in those days) had been to grammar school, a couple to independent schools and all had A levels but applied for the sandwich courses, taking HND or degrees, as giving the best experiences of work and education.

But Allira HND courses were recognised as being equivalent to degrees. In the past, few universities taught subjects outside quite a narrow range of "traditional" subjects in very traditional ways. HNDs are now recognised as degrees and that's what people who study them are awarded. They revolutionised the ways first degrees are taught, so many now included a "sandwich" element and all degrees have to be accountable for teaching transferable skills which will be useful to a graduate's future. The line between traditional degrees and vocational degrees is much more blurred these days. Anybody embarking on an undergraduate degree really should consider whether that will be enough on its own because (as I've already written) many graduates will need some form of postgraduate training/education beyond their first degree.

You may regard it as narrow-minded but in fact it was a system which worked well and produced graduates who were well-qualified, with experience and an understanding of the world of work too.
And without the burden of huge debt to start their working lives
I’m not saying otherwise.

I am saying that those talking about ’ex-polys’ are ignoring over 30 years of progress, and the fact that whatever worked well 30-odd years ago the system is different now.

I would love to see people graduate without debt, just as I believe that as many people as possible should have the opportunity to benefit from a university education. I find that many people who advocate a return to the past are looking through rose coloured glasses. Comparatively few people had degrees (and of course that scarcity value meant that those with them often resent the fact that people they see as ‘undeserving’ getting in on the act), and the high numbers of people going into apprenticeships at 15 or 16 meant that skilled labour was cheap - great if you want to hire a plumber, but less so if you are a plumber.

Expansion of education has brought about a shift in social mobility, with some winners and some losers. I’m sure that drives a lot of feelings about who should and shouldn’t have access to it.

My girls’ grammar school did nothing to prepare pupils for work in the 60s David, only for university.

My DGD1 applied for the Amazon degree apprenticeship. There were thousands of applicants. Last week she had a 5 hour interview on Zoom with breaks. She wasn't successful but I didn’t know she would have to commute into London from Wokingham every day. She wasn’t too disappointed but did like the idea of saving a considerable sum of student fees.

50 yrs ago schools prepared children for work, whether that was manual work at 15 or technical at 16, only around 10% went to university, mostly from grammar school, a few more from
private school
I did a sort of an apprenticeship degree leaving school with GCEs at 16 straight into work, 3 yrs day release, 1 yr technical college, 2nd yr management college. I was so lucky to choose that because at 21 I knew exactly how to make money. I could talk to bank managers and other professionals on their level and persuade them to back me.

Having the technical and management know how is a great advantage, the sky is the limit

I suppose by ‘traditional trades’ Mamie means carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, plumbers, motor mechanics etc? They would have an ordinary apprenticeship straight out of school, not a degree apprenticeship which leads to qualification in professions rather than trades.

Mamie

These apprenticeships are not about traditional trades though. My grandchildren have friends doing degree apprenticeships in finance, the civil service, accounting, law and FTSE 100 companies.

Yes, I mentioned that as a younger member of my family chose that route. Or - was chosen, as it is fiercely competitive.

Barleyfields

Indeed it did Allira. It was also a system which served very well a lot of people who otherwise would have had nothing more than a very basic education.

Most of the boys I knew (and I say boys because there were very few girls indeed choosing engineering course in those days) had been to grammar school, a couple to independent schools and all had A levels but applied for the sandwich courses, taking HND or degrees, as giving the best experiences of work and education.

These apprenticeships are not about traditional trades though. My grandchildren have friends doing degree apprenticeships in finance, the civil service, accounting, law and FTSE 100 companies.

Indeed it did Allira. It was also a system which served very well a lot of people who otherwise would have had nothing more than a very basic education.

Doodledog

The thing is that we haven't had polytechnics since 1992, which is more than 30 years ago, and a lot has changed in that time. It is unlikely that there will be many people still working who have spanned both systems (ie who were employing people pre 1992 as well as doing so now). Even if there are some left, the chances are that unless their profession has stagnated they will have moved with the times and adapted along with the education system.

Post-92 institutions have been run as universities for so long that there is little or nothing to distinguish them. The funding was the big difference, and the fact that Polys concentrated on teaching rather than research. Now all HE is funded by HEFCE (in England) and everyone is expected to bring in money from research.

So much of what people say is based on a very out of date perspective, which was probably inaccurate even 30 years ago. Luckily, current employers are, on the whole, able to see beyond that rather narrow-minded view.

So much of what people say is based on a very out of date perspective, which was probably inaccurate even 30 years ago. Luckily, current employers are, on the whole, able to see beyond that rather narrow-minded view.

You may regard it as narrow-minded but in fact it was a system which worked well and produced graduates who were well-qualified, with experience and an understanding of the world of work too.
And without the burden of huge debt to start their working lives

Surely it depends very much on him and what he wants to finally do.

There should be much better links between the two, so that students can switch 1 or 2 years in the course. This is the case in many countries where moving between the two is possible, sometimes with an added year.

Astitchintime

DGS refused to apply for university, he knew what he wanted to do and how to go about it. He was very forthright with the school too, particularly when he learned that they score kudos for the more pupils going on to university education. His attitude was 'I am doing this for me, not he school'.

Kudos from whom? Some schools boast about the number of pupils who go to Oxbridge, study medicine, etc, but they don't gain anything materially. The people who are likely to be influenced are parents who think their child is more likely to go to a prestigious university if they go to certain schools. The truth is that some schools have a high number of pupils going to certain universities because they attract children whose parents are more likely to push them in a certain direction.

growstuff

Allira I agree. STEM (science, technology, engineering and maths) subjects are different from humanities degrees. Incidentally, some HND sandwich courses were converted to degrees. I know somebody whose HND was converted when he was in his 70s. Those courses are now labelled as degrees from the start and are very different from apprenticeships.

Both my children have humanities degrees. It's not so much the content which matters, but the skills they acquire and the way they argue their case, etc. which are relevant to management roles. My son did study for a slightly more vocational masters than his undergraduate degree and it was the combination of highly academic work and knowledge of a specialist area which bagged him his first job.

Interesting growstuff.

I am not in touch with that now, just reminiscing about what it was like 60 years ago and remembering that it seemed to be a good system.