Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

silverlining48

Given how many people goto universities now, it means more competition to get a job afterwards. Many end up working in an environment they could have got had they applied on leaving school at 18.
I would say an apprenticeship is a terrific opportunity to work and learn while being paid throughout with no student debt.

Maybe you DGS should look at the opportunities available. Many jobs in science are at technician level, which is maybe not what he's hoping for.

kittylester

He is aware of that growstuff but at the moment he doesn't know where his future might lie. Which is often the same for university students.

It's a difficult one. My personal feeling (with some anecdotal evidence) is that a university degree would keep his options open. My partner has just retired as a biochemistry professor at a RG university and I know that they favour university graduates for internal posts. On the other hand, they're under so much pressure to fill their masters courses (and earn money for the university) that it's relatively easy to get a place. My partner supervised MRes students, who spent half of their course in industrial placements. He might want to consider that. My partner is sitting next to me and, in his opinion, a masters is essential for anybody considering a career in science, whatever the initial course. Many of them are offered permanent jobs (with prospects) by the companies offering placements. My son-in-law has a degree and masters in biochemistry and genetics from a RG university. He found a job very easily and is now a senior manager (in his early 30s) in a national company. He's leapfrogged over people who didn't have his academic background. (Having said that, the fees were quite a bit less than they are now.)

Exactly so Silverbridhe.

Doodledog, many employers now are fully aware of which universities were previously polys or technical colleges. Many employers seek graduates with good degrees from RG universities and are not interested in applicants whose cvs don’t include a favoured university. It’s a fact whether people like it or not.

Given how many people goto universities now, it means more competition to get a job afterwards. Many end up working in an environment they could have got had they applied on leaving school at 18.
I would say an apprenticeship is a terrific opportunity to work and learn while being paid throughout with no student debt.

He is aware of that growstuff but at the moment he doesn't know where his future might lie. Which is often the same for university students.

It depends what he wants to do after his degree. If he wants to go into research or to work for one of the "blue chip" companies, he'll probably need a masters or even a PhD at some point anyway. He might find that there's a "ceiling" on his promotion prospects without a university degree.

My eldest grandson did a mechanical engineering degree apprenticeship 15 years ago and found it to be the best of both worlds. He gained his degree with no indebtedness and he and his wife have been able to buy a 'forever' home in their early 30s. He has never been out of work.

As others have said, however, these degree apprenticeships are hard to come by. When my grandson applied there were over 250 applicants for 6 posts - they have to be very determined.

The thing is that we haven't had polytechnics since 1992, which is more than 30 years ago, and a lot has changed in that time. It is unlikely that there will be many people still working who have spanned both systems (ie who were employing people pre 1992 as well as doing so now). Even if there are some left, the chances are that unless their profession has stagnated they will have moved with the times and adapted along with the education system.

Post-92 institutions have been run as universities for so long that there is little or nothing to distinguish them. The funding was the big difference, and the fact that Polys concentrated on teaching rather than research. Now all HE is funded by HEFCE (in England) and everyone is expected to bring in money from research.

So much of what people say is based on a very out of date perspective, which was probably inaccurate even 30 years ago. Luckily, current employers are, on the whole, able to see beyond that rather narrow-minded view.

Here are some figures Doodledog
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/#:~:text=The%20Government%20forecasts%20that%20around,loan%20repayments%20for%20new%20students.

NotSpaghetti

Barleyfields if the "ex-poly" universities went back to the excellent work they used to do and stopped being all things to all people, I think we'd all be better off.

The teacher training colleges used to excellent in their own right as well and they took dedicated students who wanted to learn the best ways to teach and had a career in teaching in their minds.
Now (and for many years) teaching is a one year add on - often taken by people who don't know what they want to do (it seems to me).

I completely agree. The polytechnics and technical colleges provided many opportunities, from secretarial classes to day-release for HND qualifications in many fields to external degree courses and evening classes. Teacher training colleges were for people who knew they wanted to teach. The value of these institutions was vastly underestimated.

I worked for a civils company where we took on engineering students doing sandwich courses where students spent a year at uni/poly then a year on site before back to uni for the last two years. We also used to offer them holiday employment and a job when they graduated.

People don't 'scrape' into new universities. Much depends on the course, but particularly industry-based courses in new universities are often very much in demand.

Many people (young and old) can't mix with people from a range of backgrounds at work. They live in housing surrounded by people of a similar income bracket, and the workplace keeps them in proximity with others of the same grade as they are.

I don't see why free education is not affordable. In most cases students are taught as an adjunct to the research that brings in the money to a department. Given that graduates typically earn more than non-graduates the cost of teaching them would be likely to be recouped over time without an additional fee. As it is, they pay twice - in higher taxes and in charges on fees.

Do you object to people being educated to A level 'at the taxpayers' expense'? What's the difference, if not? The vast majority of people go on to become taxpayers, so it's more of an advance than a gift anyway.

I should have said that as well as the things I listed, DGS3 is having driving lessons and has to cope with his doting Grandparents checking how things are going.

He has been offered 2 positions up to now but neither are his preferred options. He has had 4 interviews up to now and at least 3 more to come.

A friend of his is doing an accountancy apprenticeship and really enjoying it. DH 's father did articles in accountancy - he (or his parents) had to pay (in guineas).

Barleyfields if the "ex-poly" universities went back to the excellent work they used to do and stopped being all things to all people, I think we'd all be better off.

The teacher training colleges used to excellent in their own right as well and they took dedicated students who wanted to learn the best ways to teach and had a career in teaching in their minds.
Now (and for many years) teaching is a one year add on - often taken by people who don't know what they want to do (it seems to me).

Doodledog, ‘growing up’ at university at the taxpayers’ expense and studying for a degree which is very unlikely to land you a job which enables you to repay your debt is not, to me, acceptable. I know you would like free tertiary education but that won’t be affordable any time soon so we have to work with what is available. Young people can mix with others from different backgrounds and learn how to negotiate life in the world of work. I suspect that if your experience has been (mostly) obtained in an RG university you have come across more able and dedicated students than some of those who scrape into an ex-poly.

Doodledog - good post.
I agree entirely.
I also think that living at home whilst studying at BA level is a mistake. I'd encourage everyone to strike out somewhere else!

I do hope your grandson finds exactly what will suit him.
I think we worry rather unnecessarily about career choices though as few of us end up in the narrow area we may have specialised in at 18.

I do however know a chilhood friend of my daughter's who is neurodiverse and knew (at about age 6) what he loved - and is doing pretty much exactly that!

If he wants this badly then I think he'll get there in the end kittylester.
🤞

Barleyfields

Degree apprenticeships are an excellent idea. Earn whilst you learn and no student debt. Far too many go to university ‘for the experience’ and end up with a degree which doesn’t get them a job together with a mountain of debt which may end up being written off.

Do you have figures for this? What is 'far too many', and which measures have been used to collect the data?

Also, why have you put 'for the experience' in inverted commas? It sounds as though you don't value the way in which young people grow up in their time at university in a semi-independent setting (sorry if I have misunderstood).

I think the university experience is very valuable. For many years I saw generations of students come in as immature 18 year olds and leave as confident, mature 21 year olds, after three years of living away from parents, learning how to get along with other people and make decisions for themselves.

It is fair to say that most people grow up between 18 and 21, but IME there was a marked difference between students who go away to university and those who live at home.

The 'experience' is not just about socialising and having fun (although that is valuable too), but about mixing with a range of people in a way that many people never do. I worked in both a prestigious RG university and in a post-92 'new' one, and saw this in a number of ways - people mixing with peers from comprehensive schools for the first time, people realising that 'talking posh' does not necessarily equate to talking sense, people making friends with others from very different cultures and so on. By no means everyone gets the opportunity to do that if they stay at home - the chances are they will mix with people like themselves, both at home and at work.

The debt side of things is, IMO, a shame. I would like to see free education to the point where people can take advantage of it (ie if someone is qualified for, and accepted on a course they should be able to study on it) so that the population is made up of people educated to their potential. As you say, however, some debt is written off, which IMO is fine if this is because people haven't earned enough to pay despite working for many years - some lines of work are horribly underpaid. If, OTOH, people take a university place and then don't work, the debt should remain, and ways should be found to reclaim it.

I think the concept of 'degree apprenticeships' is interesting. I know nothing about them from an educational perspective, but the very fact that they are being so obviously flagged as 'degree equivalent' shows that we are still not recognising trades and 'hands-on' work as being as valuable as graduate work. I think that correcting that would be a good way forward.

I don't understand why a good university offering a Fine Art degree wouldn't need to see a portfolio.
I had to have a portfolio (twice - undergraduate and postgraduate) and so did my daughters (again both undergraduate and postgraduate) - none of us did "straight" Fine Art either.
UAL still wants a portfolio. It's in their info (I just had a look).

Many universities have been about “bums on seats” not the aptitude of the student, or employment prospects in that area.
A degree apprenticeship would be intensive study in a specific technical area, not everyone has the aptitude for that type of course.

Thanks for your thoughts Barleyfields. You are absolutely right. He would not interview very well at all although he would be a diligent worker

My nephew has spent 2 years applying for a degree apprenticeship has had numerous interviews and not been able to secure a place. He is doing part time college courses aswell as doing 2 jobs, so is a hard worker.
He was diagnosed as autistic about 10 years ago and feels this is going against him in interviews.

My Grandson done a apprenticeship in hydraulics engineering. He just turned 20, he has passed the levels he required, he is also doing project management. He loves it, he is in no debt, has his own car, and he enjoys going to work earning good money for his age.

He was also a good student at School, top sets and high GCSE results, uni just was not for him.

Greenfinch, sadly these apprenticeships are hard to get. There is a lot of competition and your grandson’s autism may be evident to a potential employer. He would I think do well to admit it so as to explain why he may appear ‘different’. Employers have boxes to tick nowadays and that could work to his advantage.

Greenfinch

My grandson is trying for apprenticeships in business or finance. He is finding it hard going especially as he won’t admit to his autism. He never has wanted to admit to it and says it would go against him. His twin sister on the other hand has applied to university to do Fine Art and so far has been accepted at three ( they ask for a merit in her diploma) without an interview or even submitting her portfolio.

The NAO has a positive attitude to diversity so I suspect other government organisations will have similar programmes.