The bias against the under 65's by the English government

Barleyfields

It would be very obvious who was receiving means-tested benefits if they were the only ones showing a bus pass - rather like the stigma attached to those receiving free school dinners when I was a child.

Doodledog makes the very good point that those just above the limit for receiving a free pass might be unable to afford to go and visit relatives, friends, social groups etc.

Barleyfields I also thought about the stigma attached to free school dinners.
I hated being called up first for meals as part of the -back then-very small group of girls in my school who got free school dinners.
But I wonder now if things like this still attract the same stigma,somehow I don’t think that they do.

I have a small NHS pension. Because of that I get nothing. My two brothers are on SDP and income support so they get everything including rent paid, council tax discount and a companion bus pass. Their income is far more than mine. I do get SDP and am as disabled as they are. But my pension is less than their monthly income including tent and council tax payments. They recognise how skewed the system is and I do not grudge them one single penny. One has had a brain injury for decades the other had to give up a cherished job as an hgv driver because he had to have open heart surgery. Fortunately I have my bus bus which I taken as an over 60s pass though could have had the disabled pass. I couldn’t be bothered with the constant updates of info and expiry dates. I think its really mean that the English don’t get their pass. This should be reinstated at 60. This country can throw billions to support war and immigration privilege’s that UK people don’t get plus all those perks the ministers get from their lords snd masters. The system is skewed like this to cause division. If we had peace on earth and among us Brits then they could not survive in their current wealth state. I love my fellow man but happy these things are now being revealed.

In my area it is 60 for local buses and trains.

Have a bus pass but only ever used it on trips to London. Buses locally are practically non existent so need to use a car for local trips.

It is unfair that those in Scotland, Wales and NI (and London) can claim a bus pass at 60, but not elsewhere in England. The reason is that we have devolved governments and local authorities can make their own decisions on spending. It is a much bigger question to ask if we want to stop the ability to make local decisions and have more centralisation.

If Londoners over 60 are still working, they cannot use their bus pass to get to work before 9am, so those still working still need to pay fares.

I just assumed in my local area once you receive you SP if, you needed a Bus Pass you apply for it, if you don't need one you don't apply.

And thanks, AGAA4

I like it when something I read changes my mind. It's too easy to get entrenched in a point of view, but it can be liberating when something 'clicks'.

PoliticsNerd

Did you read any further than the first sentence Doodledog?

Yes. Do you have to be so unrelentingly rude?

Thanks for the link Silverbrooks it is depressing reading.

AGA. Yes, it does need to stop but when the Government publishes a Green Paper on plans to change things - to make it more attractive to work than not - they are lambasted from all sides.

When we have a million young people 16-24 who at NEET, mostly male, 600,000 of those not even looking for work, we know that something is seriously wrong with our society.

I would urge people to read the Centre for Social Justice paper Lost Boys.

www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/library/lost-boys

It makes for depressing reading.

I don't mean for this to take the discussion off track - the thread after all was about why there is age disparity around the UK in issuing free concessionary passes which somehow morphed into a discussion about bus passes for all.

I'm an unrepentant car driver, so I've never applied for a bus pass but I have one nevertheless. I applied for a library card and when it arrived, it was also a bus pass. When I have to give up driving, I will probably use it at least weekly to go to the shops.

doodledog I have read every post and have to say I was wrong about means testing.
I hope that Labour will do something about those receiving benefits being as well off or even better off than those who work.
My DGS who leaves home at 6.15 every weekday for work and doesn't get home till 7pm has said that if he was on benefits he would be getting a similar amount for staying in bed on freezing winter mornings.
This needs to stop.

The concessionary fare scheme costs ther government 885 million per year. 10% of the passes are for people with disabilites, the rest are for people on State Pension. That’s about 14.5 million people altogether who are eligible.

604 million concessionary journeys using those passes are taken a year. Not everyone who is eligible for a pass applies for one. Not everyone with a pass uses it to the same extent. The average number of journeys taken per year per pass is 65 (around triple that in London). But assuming all 14.5 million eeigible did use their pass equally then they would be be taking around 40 bus journeys a year - which isn’t a lot.

But the cost to government is based on the number of journeys taken. Someone working full time and taking the bus to work would be using the pass a lot more - say at least 10 journeys a week, around 500 journeys a year.

While the notion of providing free public transport for everyone sounds attractive it would be very difficult to implement and controversial because much of our transport network is privately-owned. If you gave everyone a free bus pass it would only be fair to give free passes for all forms of public transport.

For example, to make public transport free in London, it would require replacing around £5.5 billion in annual fare revenue. If that cost were to be recouped from all London households it would cost each household approximately £1,500 pa whether they use public transport or not.

The final paragraph of this makes a valid point:

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/debate-london-public-transport-free-053500980.html#:~:text=To%20make%20travel%20free%20we,use%20public%20transport%20or%20not.

Without fares we have little indication of the real strength of demand. People could hop onto buses for short journeys when they could walk, which is fine for them, but swells the number of buses needed even if the value of short hops is trivial. And people will take tubes when they could cycle. With artificially hiked demand, there will be a constant political battle for greater subsidies from local and central government, probably at the expense of more pressing needs such as housing or schools. The power of transport unions, already too great in London, would increase further as there would no longer be customer pressure to keep fares down.

Did you read any further than the first sentence Doodledog?

It only makes it "pointless to save" if you are expecting to come quite close to the means-tested amounts.
But that is the case for many people. Yes, there are those who ‘can afford’ xyz, and those who get more from work than money, but assuming that those things are typical is a very privileged view. It’s one I hear a lot, and it is very frustrating. It ignores a huge swathe of society who work because they have to, who can’t save much, but who want to ‘better themselves’. They are the ones who live in areas where problem families are housed, where immigrants are placed etc, and they are told they are racist or unkind when they object. Worse, they are told this by people whose jobs are not threatened by people undercutting their wages, and who have only seen hostels on the News.

They are called stupid for voting for Brexit, and nobody with the power to do anything about it really listens to them - well, people like Reform do, and we wonder why they are on the increase.

By definition people who post on sites like GN have time to do it. They have a working device from which to post. They can use the Internet and are articulate enough to make their points, as well as having enough interest in the world to have points to make. There are many people who are not in that position, but we ignore them at our peril.

You have to apply for a bus pass. It’s not given out randomly. Unlike the WFA We are in our eighties and no longer have a car. Our ability to walk is now a problem but a local bus is our life line.

Doodledog

Means-testing just makes it pointless to save, is expensive, and can also be embarrassing for those who qualify. As it is, if everyone has a pass nobody can tell who is on benefits and who isn't.

People were furious when WFA was means-tested, and nobody knows who is on PC unless they choose to disclose it. Many people complained about those just above the PC limit who are there because they paid into a work pension, and I agree that it is unfair to penalise people for doing so (or rewarding them for not, if you prefer).

Bus passes would be more of the same if they were means-tested, and could result in someone with a small works pension losing their WFA and not being able to visit friends and family, when their neighbour who is on benefits gets both a bus pass and the heating allowance. That would be very unfair - means-testing almost always is.

The government is currently trying to incentivise work, so penalising people for doing so by taking their bus passes would fly in the face of that philosophy.

It only makes it "pointless to save" if you are expecting to come quite close to the means-tested amounts.

However, your comment brings forward the critical reminder that "it's not the people who abuse the systems it's the systems that abuse the people".

Many challenges - such as inequality, injustice, and discrimination - arise from the design and functioning of such systems, in politics, economics, education, or healthcare. These systems can perpetuate harm to individuals and communities, often in ways that are invisible or normalised.

It also highlights that, while individual actions can certainly cause harm, individuals often operate within constraints set by larger forces. If a system is inherently unfair or flawed, it can produce negative outcomes, regardless of the intentions of individuals within that system.

I use this phrase when people - not unreasonably as they are lead to think in this way - find a particular group to blame. I hope governments will pay more attention to those at the edge of a system. But I don't, for one moment believe the government is biased against the under 65s. That headline is part of a "foolish consistency" which Ralph Waldo Emerson defined as “the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." There are many such people in both journalism and politics and sadly, on forums.

Yes, it’s not about people’s lifestyle choices in themselves - it’s about people who expect the consequences of those choices to be mitigated by those who make different ones. If someone has no money because they have chosen not to work, why should this qualify them for a free bus pass (or whatever) that someone who does work has to pay for?

That is where means-testing is unfair.

Norah I am not demeaning stay at home mums but those who claim lots of benefits when they are able to work and don't have care of others.
I did stay home to look after my young children for a while but we didn't claim benefits apart from the child benefit which everyone gets.

You have completely misunderstood my post.

Traveling an issue for everyone and is complex.

It affects young people just as much as older people it seems to me - for different (and similar!) reasons.

Sometimes bus travel is related to address for youngsters too. My grandson (living on the border of two authorities), wants to study a particular post GCSE course and he can't do this at his in-county college or sixth form. His parents will have to pay the significant costs of getting him there (bus/train/bus) and home again - even though it's only a couple ofmiles further. This adds to the family outgoings and would be impossible for a family already struggling.
Our young people should not have to make A'level choices based on family income.

My understanding is that the Freedom Pass is funded by the London boroughs who reimburse TfL. Some of this funding is coming from council tax and some from parking revenue - both charges and penalties.

The Freedom Pass is funded by London borough councils who reimburse TfL, who administer the scheme. Since 2012 the Mayor of London has directly funded an additional discretionary pass, the 60+ London Oyster photocard. This bridges the gap between the age of 60 and pensionable age (currently 66), when someone would become eligible for the Freedom Pass instead.

There is also a range of discretionary fare schemes for younger people, apprentices, veterans and job seekers in London.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01499/

In other words, someone entitled to a Freedom Pass who is paying council tax in a London borough is to a certain extent funding their own free travel whereas a low-paid worker may well be in receipt of council tax benefit and may not be.

That’s why this is not a straightforward “it’s not fair” argument.

Furthermore, if you follow the Freedom Pass is funded link it explains:

The benefit of the Freedom Pass is that it enables older and disabled people right across London to lead more active, happier and healthier lives, facilitating social inclusion and ensuring their continued participation in society.

Someone going to work or school is participating in society on a regular basis and is not socially excluded.

AGAA4

I understand what you are saying doodledog. I feel sad for my DH who worked long hours in a very stressful job and didn't get a retirement as he died aged 51. I do feel resentful of those who have been work shy and not paid a penny into the system but enjoy a reasonably good lifestyle.
I'm not talking about those who are really unable to work.

As a SAHM, I am dumfounded by people who resent others choices.

I stayed home working my socks off at home, allowing my husband very long hours to work his socks off running his business.

I receive no pension. We have a reasonably good lifestyle.

Things are not always as they appear from the outside.

Doodledog, I absolutely support subsidised or free public transport for all. To me it is a 'no-brainer'. It would cut pollution, make getting from A to B easier and safer for all, would help cut loneliness and MH issues, which in themselves would save money, if that has to be a driver.

The current £3 fares are a huge cut in my area, where 8 years ago it cost £8 to get from my home town to the nearest city, and there are no season tickets available. It would be at least £12 now for a single fare, which makes commuting expensive, and acts as a deterrent to people who would get a lot of pleasure going out for the day or visiting people.

Cheap fares benefit local economies, too.

Agreed -- all of this!

Given the forthcoming benefits cuts then surely now is the time to look at the freedom passes. Incidentally bus companies do pick up some of the bill, which gets passed on to the customers. When you have low paid workers needing to buy passes for themselves to get to work, and for their children to get to school (a hefty bill!) then surely they should be getting help?

I understand what you are saying doodledog. I feel sad for my DH who worked long hours in a very stressful job and didn't get a retirement as he died aged 51. I do feel resentful of those who have been work shy and not paid a penny into the system but enjoy a reasonably good lifestyle.
I'm not talking about those who are really unable to work.