The bias against the under 65's by the English government

Ilovecheese

I don't resent people who have never earned enough to be able to save for a generous private pension getting pension credit, but then I don't resent stay at home mothers getting a pension either.
Trying to make all of life "fair" is a waste of effort.
Instead of resenting people who live on benefits, who have very little, why not resent the very wealthy who don't want to pay tax.

Maybe you don't, but can't you understand why some people will? I don't know your circumstances, but if you worked in an unfulfilling job for long hours and low pay, why wouldn't you resent paying tax so that your neighbour could stay at home when you are trudging to work?

I was lucky in that I did get more from my work than the salary, but I think it can be very patronising to assume that others should feel grateful for being able to go to work, or that a mind-numbing or dangerous job is somehow good for the soul. Many people only work for the money, and when they see others getting the same (or more) money for doing nothing I'm not surprised they are resentful.

That doesn't mean that wealthy people who don't want to pay tax are well-loved either, though . I think the difference is that they can pay others to help them not to pay, and in any case their finances are not on display, so people don't usually know who is paying what.

Trying to make life fair might not be easy, but I don't see it as a waste of effort. If we want to live in a society ruled by consensus, it is vital that we at least try to make things less unfair than they are now.

AGAA4

Bus travel should be cheaper if not free for all then. I know my GS who has his first job has to pay a lot of his not well paid salary to get to work. There are many like him. Labour want to get people into work but bus fares would put some off making the effort.
When people are struggling to pay for fares just so they can bring a wage home I can understand the resentment when pensioners have a free pass just to go out for fun.
I know a man who works full time who after he has paid all the essentials like rent and fares can't afford to go out. There are others in that position.

This feels wrong to me.

I absolutely support subsidised or free public transport for all. To me it is a 'no-brainer'. It would cut pollution, make getting from A to B easier and safer for all, would help cut loneliness and MH issues, which in themselves would save money, if that has to be a driver.

The current £3 fares are a huge cut in my area, where 8 years ago it cost £8 to get from my home town to the nearest city, and there are no season tickets available. It would be at least £12 now for a single fare, which makes commuting expensive, and acts as a deterrent to people who would get a lot of pleasure going out for the day or visiting people. Cheap fares benefit local economies, too.

I think most people resent them I love cheese

I don't resent people who have never earned enough to be able to save for a generous private pension getting pension credit, but then I don't resent stay at home mothers getting a pension either.
Trying to make all of life "fair" is a waste of effort.
Instead of resenting people who live on benefits, who have very little, why not resent the very wealthy who don't want to pay tax.

Bus travel should be cheaper if not free for all then. I know my GS who has his first job has to pay a lot of his not well paid salary to get to work. There are many like him. Labour want to get people into work but bus fares would put some off making the effort.
When people are struggling to pay for fares just so they can bring a wage home I can understand the resentment when pensioners have a free pass just to go out for fun.
I know a man who works full time who after he has paid all the essentials like rent and fares can't afford to go out. There are others in that position.

This feels wrong to me.

Why do people not look at the bigger economic picture? They want to reduce everything to a situation which triggers resentment. This is what residual welfare versus universality always does - c/f the resentment (and rightly so) felt by people whose income is just a pound or two over the Pension Credit limit who no longer receive WFP.

As the ENCTS scheme is operated regionally - the LA issues the bus pass not central government - how would it be administered? Means testing is expensive. That last figures I can see are from the HoC paper from 2019 which says:

Means-testing is expensive to administer. In 2010-11 each new Pension Credit claim cost £351 and existing claims £47 compared to £91 for a new state pension claim and £14 for existing claims [Means testing National Audit Office, 2011].

Each PC claim must cost at least £500 now. Add another layer of admin to liase with LAs over bus passes and you add to that cost.

As well as the loss of business income and and tax revenue generated from people with passes making over 600 million journeys a year, jobs losses and inconvenience to paying customers when bus operators cut non-viable routes as a result, more congestion and wear and tear on roads as people resort back to their cars etc, the result would be a huge net loss for a scheme that currently costs less than a billion a year.

Bus companies are reimbursed for journeys actually taken. So I ave friends who have bus passes (they find them useful as I.d. But do not take bus journeys. The pass is of no cost.

AGAA4

I think bus passes should be means tested as a lot of older people can afford the fares.

At least they keep a lot of cars off the road. I use mine an awful lot less since I’ve had my Freedom Pass.

I'm going out tomorrow for lunch and an exhibition. It's only a few miles away and I plan to take the bus and use my bus pass. I could easily drive there, which would be more convenient, and while parking isn't the easiest it is possible and not too expensive. If Mr Rosie and I had to pay the bus fares we'd probably opt for the convenience of the car, and not entertain waiting at bus stops. If they want to get cars off the road, especially for more local trips, then free bus passes more than earn their keep.

Calendargirl

It’s actually when you receive your state pension, so not 65.

I got my pension at 66, a friend of mine just 3 years younger than me won't get it until 67. Those who got bus passes etc., at 60 were lucky. Am afraid anyone in their mid to late sixties has had to wait. And God knows how long the next lot of oldies coming up will have to wait.
So actually I do think that bus passes should be available before pensionable age or a lot of older people will miss out.

AGAA4

A lot of people on here claimed that they didn't need the WFA when it was cut so they would probably manage to pay a bus fare.
There are a lot of families struggling to pay for everything now including bus fares to get to work.
I have saved all my life and now I am getting near 80 I am glad I did but I don't begrudge those who have been unable to save a free bus pass.

It's not about who can manage to pay though. It's about getting the balance right between those who work, save and pay into the coffers, and those who are capable of work but don't, and who take out.

The government has made what they always said would be 'difficult choices' around that. Some of them I agree with and others I don't, but the system we've had for years has been to penalise those who contribute financially and reward those who don't. People with rewarding well-paid jobs may say that there is more to work than money, but those on minimum wage doing repetitive insecure work may well disagree.

When someone has worked all week for little or nothing more than their neighbour who doesn't, it must be bad enough, and when that neighbour then gets WFA and a bus pass, as well as PC and other freebies simply because they didn't work then I think it's natural for the worker to feel resentment. People like Farage have picked up on that feeling, and offer solutions that may be simplistic but can seem attractive. They would, however, be dangerous for everyone.

I think that Rachel Reeves has said that she is not looking at cutting the bus pass, so this is all hypothetical, but I really hope that the government doesn't go down the road of means-testing any more than happens already.

As regards the WFA, I would rather see caps on energy bills for all (ie a cut in shareholder profits) regardless of their income or age group.

I've posted about this before, more than once. This is what I wrote last month:

These are the latest Government statisitics.

There are 8.8 million older and disabled concessionary travel passes. About 10% of passes are for people under pension age with disabilities.

604 million concessionary bus journeys are taken a year.

£708 million is reimbursed to bus operators.

The local authorities reimburse the bus operators and central government reimburse the local authorities.

The net current expenditure by government on concessionary travel is £885 million. (This is less than the universal WFP which cost £2 billion a year).

Concessionary bus pass use provides funding to bus operators for routes that might otherwise be underused in the daytime to the point that the services are removed altogether. So that’s a benefit to younger users who might otherwise lose a vital service that they need to get to and from work.

Few people take the bus just for the ride. Say each journey is for a purpose that results in the passenger spending some money at the destination. Not only does this help business, stimulates the economy, provides jobs for working age people, it produces revenue for the government.

If the average spend per journey is just £10 on VATable items, it would generate £1.2 billion in government revenue, exceeding the £885 net cost.

Most people I know who use their pass regularly are going into town to shop, to go to the cinema or other cultural events or to have have coffee or lunch. They are putting money into the economy when they might otherwise stay home. Why can’t the detractors see this? Why can they not see the social benefits for older people who might otherwise be isolated and lonely?

Calendargirl

It’s actually when you receive your state pension, so not 65.

Quite right, 66 at the moment

Calendargirl

It’s actually when you receive your state pension, so not 65.

It does seem to depend where you live though ...Merseyside residents are entitled to free bus pass at 60 to use across England and also a free train pass to use locally....including Liverpool, wirral, southport, Chester.....I think there's a few other areas offer this from 60 as well

I meant to say that it seems fair that eligibility is for all of retirement ie SRP age.

The use of buses by older people with passes helps to keep bus services on the road. It also brings much needed revenue into towns and cities as people shop, use places of entertainment etc rather than being isolated in their communities. I could afford fares but I love being able to get on a bus and go anywhere without needing to drive. I never park in the city. Better for the environment to have a full bus than 30 cars.

I’d always assumed that it was the subsidy given to bus companies to compensate for free travel for over 60s/over retirement age that was keeping the bus companies viable? If the subsidy was reduced, and only a percentage of people could travel for free, wouldn’t more companies go bust?

A lot of people on here claimed that they didn't need the WFA when it was cut so they would probably manage to pay a bus fare.
There are a lot of families struggling to pay for everything now including bus fares to get to work.
I have saved all my life and now I am getting near 80 I am glad I did but I don't begrudge those who have been unable to save a free bus pass.

Sorry - that was to AGAA4. Also, how do you know that someone 'can afford' bus fares just because they don't claim benefits? Who decides what others can afford?

But why should people be rewarded for not making provision for their retirement, and those who have be penalised?

I know it's not as simple as that, before someone states the obvious, but means-testing makes those on the edges of it resentful, and IMO goes a long way to explaining the rise of groups such as Reform.

It would be very obvious who was receiving means-tested benefits if they were the only ones showing a bus pass - rather like the stigma attached to those receiving free school dinners when I was a child.

Doodledog makes the very good point that those just above the limit for receiving a free pass might be unable to afford to go and visit relatives, friends, social groups etc.

Bus passes could be given to those receiving pension credit. There is not enough money to give people who are able to afford a fare a free pass.

Welfare benefits are being cut while people who are comfortably off can use the buses free of charge.

We use our bus passes a lot and have no car because we don't need one, so that's two old people kept off the road! It's very convenient not to have to find change for a bus fare if you're in a place where you don't know the fares. Not everywhere is as good as Edinburgh at giving that sort of information (yes, Glasgow, I'm looking at you).

Doodledog has already given good arguments against means-testing. We reckon we are paying our bus passes back in tax, which is fine with us.

It’s actually when you receive your state pension, so not 65.

Means-testing just makes it pointless to save, is expensive, and can also be embarrassing for those who qualify. As it is, if everyone has a pass nobody can tell who is on benefits and who isn't.

People were furious when WFA was means-tested, and nobody knows who is on PC unless they choose to disclose it. Many people complained about those just above the PC limit who are there because they paid into a work pension, and I agree that it is unfair to penalise people for doing so (or rewarding them for not, if you prefer).

Bus passes would be more of the same if they were means-tested, and could result in someone with a small works pension losing their WFA and not being able to visit friends and family, when their neighbour who is on benefits gets both a bus pass and the heating allowance. That would be very unfair - means-testing almost always is.

The government is currently trying to incentivise work, so penalising people for doing so by taking their bus passes would fly in the face of that philosophy.