What is a rich household?

Yes, the poorest people should be tax exempt, I agree with that. I think the British are way over taxed in general.

Cumbrianmale56 I think the main problem isn't so much the rich, but the tax system that hasn't been reformed since the last decade. I would support raising the tax threshold to 20k a year, which would improve the living standards of millions of the poorest workers, and bringing in a new tax rate of 30% for people earning 50 to 80k a year, which would remove the huge jump from 20% to 40% we have now in this tax bracket.

Agreed, current income tax system is most of the problem. It seems raising the tax threshold to 20k and adding bands could help.

I am not envious nor do I have a "chip on my shoulder" I'm not a communist either but I do question the ability for the very rich to avoid paying their dues to society when others who are less wealthy pay up. The widow, who's house is her main asset, can end up paying a high percentage of the worth on her death in IHT whilst the wealthy landowner can pass on millions completely tax free. For me it's about justice and fairness, not envy.
I've married into a wealthy family so I see it at first hand, the advantages that are passed on from one generation to another. Houses passed onto children and the "generous" market rent paid by granny goes straight into a trust, all legal and all tax efficient. I benefit from it but I'd still like to live in a fairer world. Do I take advantage of the tax laws?, Yes, of course. Would I complain if they were changed so I paid more tax? NO! I can afford to and so can lots of people!

M0nica

There are very few people with large estates earning little money. Most big agricultural estates are managed to within an inch of their lives. There isn't a brick hovel or a mud hole that isn't let or rented out to someone. Tenanted farms are taken in hand and farmed using only contractors, no farm cottages all let out for high rents.

David49 you clearly do not live in a rural area surrounded by big estates and seen how the land is managed now and how much better off these familie are, but managing their estates as a full time job, and most of them have done degrees in agriculture and estate management at Reading University or the Royal Agricultural university at Cirencester.

Monica

You have gathered exactly the opposite conclusion, my parents were tenants on a traditional estate I know exactly how it all works.
From a traditional let estate in the 1950s, it’s evolved from purely agricultural to a business estate providing employment for more than were ever employed in the past, a few buildings have been converted into residential, but no new build. I would say very little money has been made out of the farming side for many years, either from tenanted or in hand land.
This year almost all the estate has been put into environmental schemes of one kind or another, with the aim of converting to organic in 3 yrs, that’s another story we will see the results in due course. The boss did go to the Royal at Cirencester but only the “champagne course,” to learn to leave management to the professionals

I’ve no connection these days but I know them well enough as neighbours, Ive seen 3 generations and I honestly can’t criticize what they have done and I’m sure thenext will carry on in the same way. There are several other estates locally that are run in the same way.

They are far from the wealthiest locally, the manor house in the local village is owned by a Billionaire who commutes by helicopter, if was some republican activist with a chip on my shoulder, who believed that everyone should be equal I might envy their wealth, but I don’t, they have their social set I have mine. They use trusts and any other allowances to pass on their wealth just like the rest of us, successive governments have allowed that and unless we elect a communist into No10 I’m not expecting that to change

GrannyGravy13

No, no and no again.

You cannot price commodities and/or consumables according to anyone’s bank balance.

I agree. It has to be charged solely on consumption.

There are very few people with large estates earning little money. Most big agricultural estates are managed to within an inch of their lives. There isn't a brick hovel or a mud hole that isn't let or rented out to someone. Tenanted farms are taken in hand and farmed using only contractors, no farm cottages all let out for high rents.

David49 you clearly do not live in a rural area surrounded by big estates and seen how the land is managed now and how much better off these familie are, but managing their estates as a full time job, and most of them have done degrees in agriculture and estate management at Reading University or the Royal Agricultural university at Cirencester.

I don't care if people have millions in the bank or consider it immoral. Many people who have this sort of money have done well through sport, music and entertainment, or have worked very hard to build up a business from nothing. The old chestnut about taxing them more will only lead to tax exile and evasion and achieved nothing when we had really high tax rates in the seventies.
I think the main problem isn't so much the rich, but the tax system that hasn't been reformed since the last decade. I would support raising the tax threshold to 20k a year, which would improve the living standards of millions of the poorest workers, and bringing in a new tax rate of 30% for people earning 50 to 80k a year, which would remove the huge jump from 20% to 40% we have now in this tax bracket.

Anyone can set up a trust the rules are there to be used, Blair didnt change them there is no sign of Starmer doing so either. Whatever you do there is a way to avoid it if you have the money. Gifting is another way to transfer wealth, no sign of changes there either but a tax on gifting would raise a lot of revenue, maybe at the next budget

Elegran, I agree, standing charges are unfair to those who use the least.
David I think if you look further into the wealth of the Dukes of Westminster you will find that if they wished they could live the life of the idle rich because of the way the various trusts from which they benefit have been set up. Without the benefit of these trusts it is estimated that on his father's death, the present IHT would have been £3.4 billion leaving a paltry £6 . billion for the family to live on! I doubt they would have to have tightened their belts much though!
www.theguardian.com/news/2023/apr/25/duke-of-westminster-hugh-grosvenor-profile

David49

karmalady

I have met some truly rich in my lifetime, a lady so and so, some landowners. I don`t know if rich in money but certainly rich in inherited wealth, some from slavery. They owned land, had government subsidies etc. All nice people, private school educated. Large old houses, all of them

Money is not needed to be truly rich, assets are needed. They should not pay more for day to day expenses but the subsidies should be looked at and also council tax

The “idle” rich with large estates but not generating much income have largely been taxed out of existence, since WW1 Estate Duty or IHT has done that. Now the large estates or very rich (over £10m) run their lives as businesses and socialize around the business rules. All their social group are doing the same, they may or may not take much active part but direct the business for their personal and family benefit.

The government is highly unlikely to get significantly more from that group, because company taxation rules allow them to do that.

Their homes may have changed from large estates and a house in London for the 'season', but those living off low tax passive income have grown and multiplied.

Elegran

They could achieve the result by doing away with the standing charge, which puts proportionately more on the lower power bill of someone in a modest home than a rich person in a large mansion. That would of course then be added to the unit charge for power, but would put up the rich man's bill more than the poor man's.

It's been much discussed hasn't it Elegran. While I agree - no one should have to pay when they are not using the energy - little or nothing seems to have happened.

foxie48

I wish it were true that the idle rich have been taxed out of existence but that is completely untrue. The Duke of Westminster's late father left an estate worth £9 billion, it was inherited by his son virtually intact. The judicious use of trusts, passing on wealth during lifetime and there having been no IHT on agricultural land all assist the estates of the very wealthy to avoid being taxed on their death.
For most of us "death and taxes" are inevitable but for the wealthy only death is an absolute.

That’s exactly the point The Duke of Westminster runs his estates as a business and can direct it whatever way he wants within the rules.
Exactly the same for Jim Ratcliffe or James Dyson the only difference is inherited or earned wealth, new money or old, their money will be passed on in exactly the same way.

They could achieve the result by doing away with the standing charge, which puts proportionately more on the lower power bill of someone in a modest home than a rich person in a large mansion. That would of course then be added to the unit charge for power, but would put up the rich man's bill more than the poor man's.

I wish it were true that the idle rich have been taxed out of existence but that is completely untrue. The Duke of Westminster's late father left an estate worth £9 billion, it was inherited by his son virtually intact. The judicious use of trusts, passing on wealth during lifetime and there having been no IHT on agricultural land all assist the estates of the very wealthy to avoid being taxed on their death.
For most of us "death and taxes" are inevitable but for the wealthy only death is an absolute.

karmalady

I have met some truly rich in my lifetime, a lady so and so, some landowners. I don`t know if rich in money but certainly rich in inherited wealth, some from slavery. They owned land, had government subsidies etc. All nice people, private school educated. Large old houses, all of them

Money is not needed to be truly rich, assets are needed. They should not pay more for day to day expenses but the subsidies should be looked at and also council tax

The “idle” rich with large estates but not generating much income have largely been taxed out of existence, since WW1 Estate Duty or IHT has done that. Now the large estates or very rich (over £10m) run their lives as businesses and socialize around the business rules. All their social group are doing the same, they may or may not take much active part but direct the business for their personal and family benefit.

The government is highly unlikely to get significantly more from that group, because company taxation rules allow them to do that.

David49

Middle income or middle class?

An income of £25k is not much above a living wage working families buying a house don’t have spare cash. I would put middle income at £35-50k at that level they should have discretionary spending unless they live in London.

Any extra taxation has to be raised from the over “median” income group, increasing to 30% income tax over £35k would increase revenue substantially, I would also means test a range of public services for those of higher wealth.

“Class” doesn’t come into it these days

"Middle class" is a term that The Times chose to use. You may or may not like it, I may or may not like it but it is a fact that they used it. That is why I look for the explanation of what it means to the Times.

(The Times is based in London, owned by a Japanese holding company, Nikkei, with core editorial offices across Britain, the United States and continental Europe.)

keepingquiet and your definition if rich is what? On income, an income in excess of£50,000

keepingquiet

The poor always pay more as a proportion of income for everything. The 'rich' always know how to pay less, which is why they are rich and the poor pay for them.

Nonsense!
We have both worked hard and paid tax via PAYE.
Why should we pay more for power?

I have met some truly rich in my lifetime, a lady so and so, some landowners. I don`t know if rich in money but certainly rich in inherited wealth, some from slavery. They owned land, had government subsidies etc. All nice people, private school educated. Large old houses, all of them

Money is not needed to be truly rich, assets are needed. They should not pay more for day to day expenses but the subsidies should be looked at and also council tax

The poor always pay more as a proportion of income for everything. The 'rich' always know how to pay less, which is why they are rich and the poor pay for them.

Middle income or middle class?

An income of £25k is not much above a living wage working families buying a house don’t have spare cash. I would put middle income at £35-50k at that level they should have discretionary spending unless they live in London.

Any extra taxation has to be raised from the over “median” income group, increasing to 30% income tax over £35k would increase revenue substantially, I would also means test a range of public services for those of higher wealth.

“Class” doesn’t come into it these days

I think the figure quoted by M0nica is the median household disposable income - so after tax and deductions.

£34,500 per annum, or £2,875 per month.

I don’t pay tax - my income is mostly from my Ex (alimony), I guess tax is paid before it comes to me.

Casdon

Some details:
In 2022-23, 61% of pensioners paid income tax, according to HMRC. From 2027, the full new state pension will exceed the personal allowance, meaning it will become taxable for the first time for all recipients.
By 2032, 76% of pensioners are expected to pay tax on their retirement income.
This is all assuming that the personal allowance is not raised in the interim.

Good luck to anyone who thinks they can predict our economy in 2032!

M0nica

The median household income in the UK is £34,500 a year, so the middle income earning household will be those earning roughly between £25,000- £50,000

The income quoted previouslywas to understand the Financial Times use of the description "middle-class".