Flight of fancy - protest against doctors’ strike

Thanks foxy. One of my relatives starting salary aged 24 in commercial law was much higher than his friends who went into medecine

There are in reality very few places for the Lidl graduate scheme - 30 to 50 is quoted and 10 for Ireland. foxie48
Nothing like the numbers the government is having to pay in the NHS.

Architecture and engineering also take a long time to qualify and pay for first years isn’t brilliant. Accountancy is a long haul too.

There is more at stake than money (though that is a consideration) Newly qualified doctors in a hospital are responsible for multiple sick people, their life, death or potential future state of health, and they are doing it for, in some cases, over 12 hours at a time with pressure of events causing them to miss essential breaks. When they do finish a shift and are off-duty, they still worry about whether patients are OK. There is a lot of stress illness among the medical profession.

Architects, engineers, and accountants can take a lunch break or visit the loo without their work undoing itself before they return.

Elegran in reality it will be a consultant, then registrar and finally a junior doctor in the hospital hierarchy. To think as you suggest that f1 and f2 juniors are not supervised is really scary. This group is still very much in training.

The union wouldn’t engage in talks with Wes Streeting over anything other than money, they were determined to get the doctors out on strike.
Well done to all the doctors who refused to strike this time!

Ronib, resident doctors have an established practice of supervision with more senior doctors teaching, assessing and signing off competency. The idea that Foundation doctors are unsupervised is completely untrue. They will know what competencies they have signed off, when they need to ask for assistance or guidance and who is the first person they need to contact. However, this is why it is difficult to increase training places without compromising safe practice. Safe practice is instilled in every doctor.

I understand the frustration of these doctors and I agree that they are not properly paid for all the responsibility and stress they bear.

However, after a 22% pay rise last year (which I acknowledge does not redress the historical deficit), I think it is totally unreasonable for them to be demanding 29%, or anything like that amount, this year.

I don't think I would go so far as to protest against their actions but I certainly will not voice my support.

GeorgeKirrin

The thing is if you don't pay them and value them they will go abroad where they are paid enough and valued.
Full disclosure, my daughter is a resident doctor aged 27. She knew the salary but had no idea that 10 hour shifts actually turn into 13 hour shifts with no breaks and nowhere to eat anyway, she had no idea she would be thrust into being the only on call doctor for 2 major hospitals overnight, no idea about the tutoring, lecturing, conferences and papers she would have to write in order to even be considered to go on to the next stage after the first 2 years ( all in her own time), no idea about the cost of indemnity fees, parking, compulsory membership fees, insurance etc. She foolishly didn't belive all of the horror stories she read about junior doctors being exhausted yet she is the one who walked into a lamp post practically sleep walking g home after a 13 hour night shift with no food.

She completed her first year after university in a deanery 100 miles from home, moving the next year to a town 35 miles from that so having to move again. She then spent the next 2 years writing papers, lecturing etc to get enough points to be able to even apply for the next 3 years training. Her friends mostly went to Australia and that's where they are staying. She got on the next training path - again another 50 miles away. Next year she will be in the next county, the year after she has not been told yet. After that she will have to compete again to get on to the next training stage. All that time she has lived in a succession of HMOs and shared houses, continually being bombarded with emails from Australia and NZ offering accommodation, more money, less hours and a great lifestyle. She is exhausted already and disillusioned at the working conditions. That £97k student debt is rising all the time.

We will be losing more and more of our well trained young doctors and it will be our own fault for not valuing their expertise anymore than we value the Saturday girl barista in Costa Coffee in monetary terms and work conditions. At least Costa probably gets free coffee.

She really wants to work in geriatrics, it will be our generation that misses her most if she doesn't stay. Protest if you like but they will be off if no one listens

I have said elsewhere that I was horrified that Junior/Resident doctors say they are paid the same as I was as a Social Worker in the 2005-2012.... but expected to work far longer hours, study and pay for their training/exams etc.....as well as having huge responsibility for the lives their patients. Many of them say their pay has not gone up since then and this claim has not been disputed. I was shocked when the consultants came out on strike - www.gov.uk/government/news/end-of-nhs-consultant-strike-action-as-government-offer-accepted - I naively thought they were supporting their 'Juniors' action...... Apparently, I was mistaken....

I have just had a conversation with a son in law,a Consultant in A&E in a large teaching hospital in the north. He reminded me that there are additional allowances for out of hours work and,therefore,the hourly rate quoted by the BMA is not to be relied on.

In his hospital many resident doctors are earning over £70k a year and take a small pay cut if/ when they become a Consultant. He is not supportive of the strike.

What I find odd is that the BMA,a professional body still I assume as well as a trade union quote an hourly rate! Which other professional does this?

Liberty the allowance is for working unsocial hours, so they get paid a higher rate for working nights, weekends or bank holidays which is the same for everyone else. Consultants often don't attend their hospital when they are "on call". If a problem arises that needs their input the most senior doctor will telephone them at home. Consultants should live within half an hour's travel to their hospital so they can come in quickly if required in an emergency but tbh many don't.
fwiw, I don't support the latest strike action but I do object to resident doctors being presented as greedy or work shy in some way. I'm sure there are some who are but most are not. the minimum basic pay for a consultant in England is over £105k pa, I think few, if any resident doctors get paid that amount and if they are, they will be doing locum work in addition to their NHS contract so I'm not sure where he is getting his facts

How much do MPs get paid per Hour although are there any set hours for Mps Is there any way to compare if you don't have set hours ? I think Doctors should be really well paid they spend years training are expected to work unsocial hours and have responsibility in life and death decisions where MPs seem to just turn up in parliament if they feel like it Then there's nurse associates with two years training getting paidmore than junior doctors why ?

Foxie my son in law gets his information,I believe,from talking to colleagues in his hospital and others at regional meetings etc.

He took on an extra night shift on Friday and is now working nights until Wednesday morning. GPs of course,as well as consultants have to live within 30 minutes of their practice and,according to our GP daughter and other consultant son in law,they,and their colleagues do.

I believe that after the last strike many resident doctors took on locum shifts which were very well paid,to help reduce the waiting lists caused in part by the strike.

I believe in everyone being properly paid for the work they do but where there is,or should be a vocational element to such work,thinking about the effect of their actions on others.

AmberGran

Surely it would be better for doctors if their actual workloads and the way we train doctors was investigated?

My son is a doctor. He actually doesn't want the strike, but is adamant that there must be a better way to train and use doctors than we currently do.

I agree Ambergran. I also have doctors in the family and have been shocked by their exam fees and their hours of work. However Wes Streeting was prepared to talk about this, and the doctors said ‘no, this is about pay’.

Not a lot of sympathy here I’m afraid.

MPs aren't particularly important How difficult is it to get an appointment with one Saying that. It's hard to get a doctor's appointment with the phone at 8am farce ! But where I live your more likely to get an appointment eventually with a Doctor than an MP

We need Doctors they can be underpaid what's right about that

henetha

I've no patience with the doctors this time. Get back to work, is what I think they should do.

This.
And I'm left of centre. They can't say they need it. I acknowledge that their salaries do need to rise relative to other within NHS and outside, but with their recent whopper of a payrise they can't justify it this year.
A note to stay on record, that they are dissatisfied with theis year's rise is absolutely OK by me, but a strike?
Trouble with global economy, the economically mobile (which even the juniorest doctor is) don't feel much loyalty to national employers any longer - to go elsewhere if the NHS implodes would be possible for most of these strikers.Their wellbeing is no longer dependant on the NHS' wellbeing.

I understand about training and exam fees, they don’t just apply to doctors.

However, listening to all those, including my work colleague, who have family in the medical profession, talking about how overworked they are, how long their hours are, e.g.

He took on an extra night shift on Friday and is now working nights until Wednesday morning. GPs of course,as well as consultants have to live within 30 minutes of their practice and, according to our GP daughter and other consultant son in law, they, and their colleagues do.

Then reading comments like those above, I’d like to know how getting another pay rise is going to solve their overworked or long hours problem.

I believe that after the last strike many resident doctors took on locum shifts which were very well paid,to help reduce the waiting lists caused in part by the strike.

I’m confused.
So overworked and with such long hours that they can take on extra shifts?

And if their overworked and long hours is at the root of their discontent, does that mean they’ll be back next year for yet another pay rise?

Because unless we get more Doctors, or agree to be treated by the multiplicity of not-Doctors that have appeared over the last few years, the long hours aren’t going to get any shorter and the *overwork^ any less

Nurses will be out on strike next.
Why have they been offered lower than the Police? Am starting to think can any government ever get things right?

I think a nurses strike is about to happen Oreo I read a news item about it.

It's not just about the money for them either, as I have said on here before my well qualified and experienced daughter has given up nursing and taken on a lower paid job. The stress and poor management made her job untenable.

I will always be grateful to the nurse who was responsible for the end of life care for my husband. Her shifts were 12 hours but she was often present much longer. Her professional skills couldn’t be faulted. What made her involvement so important was her understanding and care for my husband, whilst responding so well to his wife and daughters.
She had a three year old son. She loved her job but could have earned as much on the checkout at the supermarket.

"Thousands of resident doctors cannot get jobs in the NHS, prompting the British Medical Association to open a formal dispute with the government over “training bottlenecks”.

Half of all doctors who have completed their first two years of training have said they have not been able to secure a job from August 6 this year, when the new roles begin."
The Times 29.07.25

And people wonder why resident doctors have become militant? They complete a 5/6 year uni course often having a huge student loan, do two years as a foundation doctor on pretty poor pay, then can't get a job with the only employer that they can work for.

If they can’t get a job then how do you think they are coming out on strike? All the ones striking have jobs.

Ronib if you want to join the picket line live its up to you not your husband. You have a mind of your own.
I don't support them at all, 29% is a joke. Get back to doing the job, helping people, negotiate for better conditions to do the job, yes.

Oreo

If they can’t get a job then how do you think they are coming out on strike? All the ones striking have jobs.

It’s changeover next week, so there will be a lot who are striking in their final week in a job, who will finish next weekend until they are able to secure another role.

I had written to the BMA on a postcard of a painting of a doctor who had worked on the front line in WW1. Unfortunately this portrait had an uncanny resemblance to the Syrian President and this time, my sister thought I would be accused of hate crime if it was sent even with a polite request to consider both patients and doctors in future negotiations. So my frustration continues Allsorts. I tore up the postcard….. and saved the price of a stamp. Allsorts