Hmmm, 200 Years Of The Railways.

MayBee70

The easiest way to achieve net zero [or at least help towards it] is to make public transport affordable to all. I seem to remember bus fares in Cyprus being 1 euro. I just don't understand why it isn't happening...

Successive governments efforts to increase used of public has been very half hearted because they know if drivers are forced out of their cars they loose lucrative taxation and pay out more in public transport subsidies.
It’s a lose - lose situation unless it’s a densely populated city like London where public transport can be used efficiently and car use is very expensive and impractical for many.

The easiest way to achieve net zero [or at least help towards it] is to make public transport affordable to all. I seem to remember bus fares in Cyprus being 1 euro. I just don't understand why it isn't happening...

we were traveling in portugal last week Cost 2 and a half hours rail journey 6 euros equals 24 euros return
too sad we are paying so much in UK Europe wins hands down keeping cars off the road and cutting emmisions !!!!!

I so wish I’d bought a ticket for ‘The Great Gathering’ in Derby this weekend…billed as a Glastonbury for train lovers. Alas I didn’t and it could have sold out several times over.

I used to be a trainspotter in late 50`s and early 60`s.
Brackley was on the Great Central London Extension line wise .
I have seen some of build up for the 200th year , on Breakfast TV, plus in Railway magazines I get as well, locally we lost two lines , but today HS2 by passes Brackley by about a mile to the North East and uses some of the former Great central line to the South of the town , but it will not have a station on HS2 .
Mick

I hadnt realized how important the road transport and car industries was to the economy it’s a massive revenue earner.
Our love of owning a car and travelling at will is taxed massively, we are real mugs.

I never had to use public transport to get to school, like many others (outside the capital obviously) I walked to school from aged 5 to 16 because schools were local. They had catchment areas and OFSTED ratings had not been dreamed up yet.

Schools had School Buses for those who needed them.
Parents weren’t always out at work from 8:30 am til whenever time either so fewer incentives to collect kids en route.
So barely any 3pm cars parked up in side streets (in winter with engines running) while they wait for the bell to go- thankyou! no car zones have just literally “driven” the problem a couple of streets away.

Result lots of children are for their entirety of their school days, deprived of the independence and autonomy of getting themselves to school.

Result: children are often infantilised later and later into adulthood until they too can join the “autogeddon” by getting their own car.
All this has happened in the last 30 years.

I didn’t address shareholders Arriva is owned by Deutschebahn the German rail operator so I don’t suppose shareholders in the UK contribute much if any.

Rail employees do pay tax but so do the road truck and car industries, I’m pretty sure rail employees are far fewer than road using industries.

MaizieD

^How much Taxation does public transport and rail raise precisely nothing^

So the companies which run rail franchises don’t pay corporate taxes, don’t pay dividends to shareholders which are (lightly) taxed? Don’t purchase anything (VAT) and don’t pay their employees? Gosh🙄

You know perfectly well VAT is reclaimed by businesses and you ticket is zero rated for VAT

I looked at the accounts of our local rail operator Chiltern Rail owned by Arriva, last year they did actually pay £1.7 million in taxation last year
Contributing to the profit they made was a £12 million subsidy, I make that a £10.3m net loss

How much Taxation does public transport and rail raise precisely nothing

So the companies which run rail franchises don’t pay corporate taxes, don’t pay dividends to shareholders which are (lightly) taxed? Don’t purchase anything (VAT) and don’t pay their employees? Gosh🙄

Ashcombe

pen50

Ashcombe

Not only did Beeching desecrate the railways, Thatcher's privatisation changed the whole industry into a profit making concern for shareholders which is why our journeys by rail are so much more expensive than in most of Europe.

I know half of Gransnet still loathes the Thatch, but rail privatisation happened several years after she was ousted.

DH tells me that you are right to correct me, pen50 as it was John Major's government to blame! My apologies!

Thatcher resigned in 1990, Major succeeded her. Rail privatisation 1993. Not really ‘several years’ after Thatcher and a direct continuation of her privatisation programme. I think we can hold her responsible 😆

Road use taxation.

It’s difficult to pin down because diverse taxation and diverse spending complicate the calculation.

Highways Agency spent over £4 billion last year on main roads and motorways this includes the cost of PFI funding new projects
Local Authorities maintain local roads and spent £3.5 billion funded by Council Tax + government grant

Over £50 billion a year is raised from road use taxation yet less than £8 billion spent on roads,

pen50

Ashcombe

Not only did Beeching desecrate the railways, Thatcher's privatisation changed the whole industry into a profit making concern for shareholders which is why our journeys by rail are so much more expensive than in most of Europe.

I know half of Gransnet still loathes the Thatch, but rail privatisation happened several years after she was ousted.

DH tells me that you are right to correct me, pen50 as it was John Major's government to blame! My apologies!

“Who pays for the road infrastructure? Not the road users!”

That is simply not true, add together Road Tax, Fuel Tax, VAT on Fuel Tax, VAT on car purchase, not to mention congestion charges. Vehicle Excise Duty + Fuel Tax raised £32billion last year+ VAT on private use. Probably over £50 billion in total.

How much Taxation does public transport and rail raise precisely nothing

Road building has been an enormous revenue raiser

@ David. It’s nice that we agree for once 😆

But I said ‘integrated transport system’, not ‘subsidised’.

MaizieD

Ah, yes. Dr Beeching’s report received and implemented by Transport Minister Ernest Marples. Who wasn’t at all influenced by his interests in construction firms engaged in motorway building…

Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, Marples died in Monaco, where he had gone to avoid being prosecuted for fraud in the UK…

Wow. Just looke up Marples on Wikipedia and l had no idea of how corrupt he was.

Talk about vested interests.
Before fleeing to Monaco he spent years tending to his vineyard on his French Estate.

Not bad for a boy from w modest fqmily who went to Stretford Gramnar School.

A real Conservative at heart.

l bet Thatcher was proud of him!

I think there should be a thread on Gransnet which outs the dodgy but past and prsent real deeds of well known people.

We could call it. Do they past Muster?

Magenta8

I remember reading how Dr Beeching researched the stations to see which were underused.

It was a bit random as his researchers just hopped on trains at odd times of day and if they happened to be on busy commuter train route that was nearly empty late morning or early afternoon they reported back that it was underused.

I agree FGT. It might explain why the research was so haphazard as well (see above). Flawed methodology and corruption in high places is nothing new.

MaizieD

Ah, yes. Dr Beeching’s report received and implemented by Transport Minister Ernest Marples. Who wasn’t at all influenced by his interests in construction firms engaged in motorway building…

Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, Marples died in Monaco, where he had gone to avoid being prosecuted for fraud in the UK…

Quite shocking to read this!

David49

“As for long distance journeys, why wouldn't we want or need to make them? What an odd statement.”

They are mainly discretionary you don’t have to work 50 miles from home you don’t have to travel to Spain four a holiday you do it by choice and pay the cost and cause the pollution, you and I are causing most of the pollution.

Yes milk and vegetables as well as other goods were delivered to the cities next day because lorries were not available.
Rail transport is always subsidized, road transport is simply cheaper, in fact even air transport is cheaper than rail, wherever you are a cheap rail or bus ticket is being paid for from taxation.
Personally I believe we should have electrified rail connecting distribution hubs but successive governments have gone in the opposite direction because it costs less. If any rail expansion is done in the way HS2 has been organized we will go bankrupt first

Rail transport is always subsidised? Who pays for the road infrastructure? Not the road users! People complain about how much HS2 costs but what about the costs of building new roads? They don't grab the headlines because people take it for granted that new roads are essential and new railways are not.

DS works for a company that doesn't allow employees to travel by car, wherever possible. They are focused on trains and rail travel for the health, safety and security (sensitive nature) of their workforce. This means fewer risks, less stress, fewer accidents etc and more productivity as work can be done on the train.
It all comes at a cost though. DS travels to London on the first train twice a week. That's £300 a time which isn't affordable for the general public.
When I travel in France, fares are a fraction of the cost of the UK journeys.

Many years ago when I was in secondary school, where I lived there was no school apart from primary. We had to take the train, no option, half hour train journey then another 20 minute walk to get to school. In all weathers. Done people need a train journey. Where I live now the only transport is a bus or car. Nearest train station is a 20 minute drive on a good day. The nearest town to me has three stations, and all are used daily by many commuters. My first job involved taking a train to work. Trains are a necessity to many people. They keep many cars off already congested roads.

I regularly travel by train. My disability railcard gives me a third off. Another angle to this discussion is that train lines have always been on a north-south basis. We have never had a proper intercity route across the middle of England. There are services but they are lengthy, spasmodic and have far too few carriages for the numbers of passengers. There should be a regular Norwich to Birmingham service via Peterborough and Ipswich to Birmingham via Cambridge. It would be much easier to change to other parts of the country, such as the West Country, Wales or the north-west rather than having to go to London and the stress of crossing London. It would almost certainly be cheaper, too. Oh, wait... London is all-important, isn't it?

I remember reading how Dr Beeching researched the stations to see which were underused.

It was a bit random as his researchers just hopped on trains at odd times of day and if they happened to be on busy commuter train route that was nearly empty late morning or early afternoon they reported back that it was underused.

Churchill who denationalised the roads I meant to say.

Sadly the boat has mostly sailed but there are old railway lines and stations being reopened such as Portishead which will ease congestion on the commuter run into Bristol. There are also new stations being approved such as Wellington, both in the South West. The Elizabeth line in London has made a huge difference for travellers into the City. Heritage railways are reopening lines which have not been built over so I don’t think we’ve seen the end of them and they have an important role to play as part of our future sustainabile transport system. There are buses that can run out the tracks as well.

BTW it was Churchill who denationalised the railways. Also the railways cut back on the number of trains in the late 50’s forcing people to find alternative means of transport. Beeching was then able to say certain lines were underused and axe them altogether.