An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Whitewavemark2

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

I agree on the whole, Whitewave except, as far as I know, there is no requirement in the Qaran for a women to wear a burqa.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Choice is one thing but control and coercion are wrong.

No way....I think we all (most of us) see it as trying to protect them from someone else bullying them into it.

CariadAgain

You are missing WWM's point.

You are equating wearing the burka in some way with FGM,

that banning FGM (which of course has to be done, it is a particularly horrendous physical assult on a girl child)

is on a par with an item of clothing that a woman, if she chooses to wear it is not in itself an oppressive choice by a woman,

By linking them you are attempting to argue that we force women not to wear a burka by law

Very obvious

very obnoxious, to force your views on Muslim women via the law..

Whitewavemark2

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

Good points raised the circumcision thing - imo male circumcision is one thing and has health advantages etc.

But female circumcision = unmitigated evil practice and it could be said that "they chose it - it's up to them" or, given the agegroup concerned "their representative - ie a relative - chose it and so it's up to them" but I have yet to see any articles at all by any woman from those countries that do this saying "Yep...I agree with what my relative chose on my behalf". They just don't - they say instead how awful it was/lifelong effects from it etc. Sometimes Society (well certainly a more modern advanced society) has to choose on peoples behalf - ie banning FGM and banning the burka.

Lathyrus3

Legislation to control what women where s legislation to control what women wear.

Which country it is in is irrelevant. It’s legislation to control what women wear.

I’m willing to listen to any rational argument as to why governments should control what women wear and why this is not misogynistic.

I agree and what should be happening is legislation to help ALL women who are coerced into wearing what their husband/ partner tells them.

Wyllow3

There can be great tendency on this forum be blind to racism in its most subtle forms.

One form is to discuss women form another culture in a patronising manner thinking we know best, but not listening or making an effort to listen to the many different voices from that culture.

I have read the full article and understand the oppression described. I did not feel I was being patronising and it did not occur to me to read any articles by other women with maybe different points of view. i suppose I cannot understand why any woman would want to cover her hair or ears, thereby not being able to hear or eat so comfortably.

Some of the loudest voices campaigning for men in female spaces were women (actual women) I listened to them and decided I didn't agree with them. Same here.

There can be great tendency on this forum be blind to racism in its most subtle forms.

One form is to discuss women form another culture in a patronising manner thinking we know best, but not listening or making an effort to listen to the many different voices from that culture.

Am I missing something? Has ‘Muslim’ now changed to ‘Moslem’? If so, why?

Oreo

3,000 to 5,000? !
I didn’t realise it was so many.
They will never integrate in our society by wearing a full face veil.
Why on earth would women actually choose such stricture for themselves? Because they were used to it in the country they came from and/or the men in the family want them to.
That’s up to 5,000 women not taking part in wider society in the UK.
And no, it most definitely isn’t racist to want women to fully take part in all our country has to offer them, so stop all the racist accusations which are sheer nonsense.

There is a tendency on this forum to see racism where none exists.

Oh dear, Caleo. what on earth have feminists been doing but arguing that women are not "available" according to what they wear.

It's relatively recently that the Police and CPS have got over the old argument "she asked for it because she dressed in such and such" "she provoked me".

You have just argued what the op expressed in her first post. That if women don't cover themselves they aren't safe.

A main disadvantage of the burqa is that it hides the wearer so completely that any new personal relationship is almost impossible. Therefor in the professional setting such as education or medicine wearing a burqa should not be permitted.

This is a matter for professional ethics not a matter for private persons. A does not need to look at B's face. Indeed at this time when a beautiful woman is still treated as a sex object or as some man's property it's best that she protect herself against impertinent gaze from either sex.

Alternatively she can shame the devil and dress as outrageously as the law allows. The fault is with the power imbalance of women and men not with the burqa. The burqa is the ultimate symbol of women protecting themselves against the existential power of men.
Making the burqa illegal would not augment the power of women, but would remove one of her safeguards.

I am free to wear a t-shirt which states women belong in kitchen. Womens choices don't always equal feminism. As I have said I am unsure of a ban because it the reasons lathyrus mentioned but I am not going to pretend that choice is any kind of feminism.

eazybee

The OP stated quite clearly she was in two minds about the banning of the burqa and sited evidence in support of both sides. She then asked, 'what do you think?'

That to me is not a racist meme but a balanced introduction to an issue of concern.

What two points of view?

The feminist POV that women should be free to wear what they choose is not alluded to.

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

I also think it's worth considering where the article was.

The Daily Mail is bound to choose to report a POV that is congruent with its own values - and not any others

An alternative: "Many Muslim women, such as UK mother-of-seven Tahira Noor and activist Lila Tamea, have spoken out in defence of a woman's right to choose to wear the burka or niqab, arguing it is a matter of personal freedom, modesty, and religious expression, not oppression" (wiki)

No, I don't.

Excuse my grammar! Must pre-write more, but you get the gist.

Allira

Wyllow3

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

The question was posed by Khadija Khan not by Sago.

Strange that you assume it is racist when it was posed by a woman of Pakistani and Muslim heritage.

Khadija Khan is a feminist, independent journalist and commentator. She is originally from Pakistan, but left the country after she criticised religious fundamentalism

It is religious fundamentalism and the forcing of women to wear the burqa that she is questioning in this country which values freedom.

I thought that would be brought up.

1. It is only one voice among many, it is not "the word of all Muslim women

2. We have not even seen the whole of the original article, just a very brief report of the article

I'd like to read it in full, as well as alternative Musilm womens view on it.

We've spent 6 pages on the basis of a word of mouth summary from one poster on one article

*which we haven't seen in full8, as in the reasons for her views, .....any essential qualifying points she makes to the contrary of her main points....... are not available to us

a very dodgy basis to say "all Muslim women" blah blah. Very dodgy indeed.

Errrm...just one little point too - there have been instances of people of bad intention (thieves? terrorists?) deciding to wear a burka as a disguise. Yep...men in a burka -

Wyllow3

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

The question was posed by Khadija Khan not by Sago.

Strange that you assume it is racist when it was posed by a woman of Pakistani and Muslim heritage.

Khadija Khan is a feminist, independent journalist and commentator. She is originally from Pakistan, but left the country after she criticised religious fundamentalism

It is religious fundamentalism and the forcing of women to wear the burqa that she is questioning in this country which values freedom.

Ok.

Galaxy

It is about approval it is about values.

I value humanity and choice and good humour.

I googled do any Muslim countries ban the burqa? This is just a sample of what I discovered.

Several Muslim-majority countries have banned or restricted the burqa and full-face veils, including Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Chad. Other Muslim-majority countries with some form of ban include Tunisia and Azerbaijan, while countries like Turkey have gradually lifted restrictions on headscarves in state institutions. Many of these bans are often tied to security concerns or a desire to counter Islamist extremism.