An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Sago

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

Here's a question. Are young women who are drunk or on drugs staggering about at night wearing next to nothing seen as " available?"

kircubbin2000

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

My granddaughter school insists girls wear trousers.

kircubbin2000

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

Crikey! to girls not allowed to wear trousers to school!!! It would have been the late 1960s when I was wearing trousers to school in England!!! Once we got to the 6th form for sure = wear exactly what you please.

Not allowed to wear a coat! - how do they even enforce that? I'm shocked the parents don't kick up about that. If I were a parent in that position I'd either be making a mockery of that rule (ie "Dear child of mine - hand me your coat 1' away from the school gate before you go in it" or hitting back via the school governors). I wouldnt let it sit - and I'm someone who isnt a child person. I'm the sort of person that, if I had a child, would have made sure I was one of the school governors...

How on earth can they treat them that way - over 50 years after I was treated much better than that in an English school? Gawd - I still remember at intervals talking to a young girl here in Wales coming back from school (not far off due to leave it) and she was shivering in the cold wind without a coat whilst we both waited for a bus (which, I gather, in her case the reason was her mother couldnt afford it and she said she was leaving school in a few months anyway). Nice young girl - and I was shocked by that and by the way she'd just accepted that - and I still think back and kick myself that I didn't just turn round and insist she was having £20 I could have easily enough spared - and was to use it to go round the charity shops and find herself one for that few months...rather than doing without....and I feel guilty that I didnt. I think I was so surprised that her mother didnt get her that thing she so obviously needed. But - yep....you don't just forbid someone wearing an item of clothing they obviously need.

I saw women in black burqua’s all through the hot weather, their husbands however sported jeans and t shirts. Ban them. I dont want to engage with anyone not seeing their faces. Women are equal here.

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

I'll believe women are happy to wear the burqa when it is made in light floaty material in pretty colours, and does not obscure the face and require a metal framework to support it on the head. Also, the males in the family also wear eastern type clothes when leaving the house.

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

Galaxy

It is choicey choice feminism, i.e as long as women are free to choose it is ok. This fails to take into account that some choices are very limited for some people, and also that those who can make the choice may be impacting those who can't.

I don't think it's anything to do with choicy choice.

People can wear what they like.

butterandjam wrote

Other Moslem women in UK have an entirely opposing POV, based on their different experience. Inform yourself;

voiceofbritishmuslimwomen.co.uk/2024/11/23/ban-the-burqa/

How can we be sure and certain that any Moslem woman saying "Yes it's okay to restrict me" is really speaking with her own voice - or whether she's being pressurised to say "Restrictive garb is okay by me"?

The link above, written by a Moslem, contains the answer and addresses exactly that point.

As you would know if you read it.

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

But her "rights" are already taken away. Is the point, surely?
When males "enforce" it, in their culture.

And there are more in the 2nd group than in the first, so sum total is less women have their rights taken away.

It is choicey choice feminism, i.e as long as women are free to choose it is ok. This fails to take into account that some choices are very limited for some people, and also that those who can make the choice may be impacting those who can't.

Lathyrus3

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

However much it is true that women only wear them because the males of their culture demand it, nothing is improved for women by turning that cultural pressure into law that makes choice of clothing a criminal act.

This is exactly what people are deploring in other countries. Women’s lack of freedom enshrined in law.

Errrm....last time I looked none of us actually would want to wear one. It wouldnt even cross my mind to translate "womans right to decide what I'd wear" into "Right I want to wear a burka then". Useful bit of cultural adaptation for people to fit in - dress in a British way (ie no burka) - on the list with "speak good English", "learn British customs", etc.

Laughing at starnded's comment re underwear for young women on a night out. Guess it depends what part of the country is in maybe? Whew - though I've certainly seen a few videos of Northern young women out for a night and thought "Crikey! Those skirts are extremely short....much shorter and one could see their knickers. Oh whoops - I can see that one's knickers". Left me wondering whether southern women dress that way too on a night out these days (though we certainly never used to back in my heyday) - though I don't think so. I wouldnt want to dress that way personally - as I'd not want men thinking I'd go in for the sort of very casual "relationships" I see sometimes. Blow "situationships" (or less) for a lark imo and I'd be one of the women in their alternative clothing personally (ie loose-fit trousers or tight-fit jeans) - but it would be still very much our normal clothing and obviously MY choice.

I'm still struggling with the idea a woman would dress in a burka from (genuinely) her own freewill choice. I can understand some clothing - eg that short dress with matching trousers outfit some Indian women wear can be very attractive and I've looked at some of them enviously (but that seemed to definitely be their own free choice - and that sort of clothing wouldnt restrict anyone). But wearing clothing that restricts your visibility/makes you unrecognisable/is a safety hazard/etc = puzzled 'r us that anyone would choose to without being pressurised into it.

The other downside of that is from our point of view - as I've seen several accounts of British women being harassed by men in Britain (!) for not "dressing modestly" and if they manage to get other women all into that clothing - would they think we should wear it too?. Not happened to me ever - no-one will spot a man walking round with a huge slap mark on his face and wonder if I've just had that stunt pulled on me and that was the result (ie the slap mark on his face) or looking to see if we actually have any such thing as a policeman around to report him to for harassment.

The more we resist other women being forced into restrictive clothing = the greater the protection for us as well that no-one tries that one on on us. Yep....that's the way things could go if burqas remain allowed - there might be pressure on US to dress differently to what we'd decided on. Would take a man that liked living dangerously to try it on some of us (like me for instance).....but we've already seen a few incidents of a British woman being harassed for dressing in a perfectly ordinary way.

I'd like to see a ban on underwear as a clothing choice by young women on a night out.

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

However much it is true that women only wear them because the males of their culture demand it, nothing is improved for women by turning that cultural pressure into law that makes choice of clothing a criminal act.

This is exactly what people are deploring in other countries. Women’s lack of freedom enshrined in law.

Sarnia

It isn't a religious requirement just a sign that the woman is subservient to a man. So, for me, it has no place in our society and should be banned.

I agree, it’s just a cultural thing, and a way of controlling women by keeping them muffled up when they’re outside…even on a hot Summer’s day.Whilst the menfolk stroll along beside them in cool t shirts and chinos.
Ban the burqa! Release women living in our country from medieval dress.

Caleo

Wearing a burqa is not necessarily a sign of male control.

The burqa is convenient as portable privacy tent for whatever reason. Who among us had never wanted an enveloping garment to slip over the head without all the bother of make-up, bras, deciding what to wear, and what colour to wear.
Not every woman likes to flaunt her body in public or be a clothes horse for some man or other cause.

I expect most of us want to be able to move freely/eat freely/breath freely.

I've tried out one of those Afghan woman garments before now and admitted they are even worse - that grille thing across the eyes. But = freedom restrainer/trip hazard/you name it = most uncomfortable to wear and anyone would have to have a death wish to even try to get me into non-Western clothing of any description.

Just because someone obeys the customs of another society within our society doesn't mean that that is what they personally genuinely want - rather than persuaded into thinking that way.

Different customs apply and people might still be living in another way - even though they're now in Britain. A friend of mine some while back now stayed in her marriage - even after she and the children followed her (Iraqi) husband over here for his course of study. One of the first things she said to me was that hers was an arranged marriage - I was gobsmacked...as it was obviously an intelligent/middle-class etc family she was from. She was very envious of us living our way and making our own choices - but all I could do was I was very open to helping her out in any way she decided against her husband and have been known to help her "set him up" as a support to her. That was a fun evening when she persuaded Mr Meanie Husband into taking her family and me out for a meal and told me to deliberately choose the dearest dishes on the menu - I did my best to oblige LOL. At least she dressed in a Western way and they werent restricting her that way.

Caleo

Franbern

No way should there ever be legislation on who can where what.

Also wrong to assume that every burqa-wearing woman is being coherced by a man into doing so. Often it is a young woman who is wearing one against the wishes of both her parents (another way of teenage rebellion).
When I was younger I often envied those wearing the head coverings, wonderful on bad hair days, etc.
Full face coverings I am not happy with in public places, would refuse to be treated by a nurse or doctor wearing one of those, need to see peoples faces when they are talking to me. But still would oppose even those to be subject to any legislation.

Franbern, there are more subtle ways that a nurse or a doctor can exert power over a patient.

A medic ---not wearing burqa but only a pretty hijab -lies to the patient that she cannot come into your house to help you as she "is allergic to dogs".

Elderly disabled patient forced to rearrange dog's lock up quarters before the medic condescends to treat her.

More like elderly disabled patient thinking "I'm not sure I believe there's an allergy there".......and rings up the health person over her and reported "She says she has an allergy to dogs. Does she? I don't know about that......but I obviously need someone different to come and see me. Can you arrange for a colleague of hers to do so instead?" and I would be very surprised if anyone locked up their dog - even if it really was an allergy. I'd certainly refuse pointblank to have things the wrong way round - ie of patient looking out for medics allergy/or maybe personal wishes?

I often wondered how much it was the wish of the women to wear the 'restrictive' clothing described in this Thread.
Then I read an account of Uigur women speaking to Moslem women, who had come as tourists to the Xinjiang Province from abroad.
The tourists claimed that the Uigur girls said they were jealous of the visitors being allowed to freely wear hijabs.

Franbern

No way should there ever be legislation on who can where what.

Also wrong to assume that every burqa-wearing woman is being coherced by a man into doing so. Often it is a young woman who is wearing one against the wishes of both her parents (another way of teenage rebellion).
When I was younger I often envied those wearing the head coverings, wonderful on bad hair days, etc.
Full face coverings I am not happy with in public places, would refuse to be treated by a nurse or doctor wearing one of those, need to see peoples faces when they are talking to me. But still would oppose even those to be subject to any legislation.

Franbern, there are more subtle ways that a nurse or a doctor can exert power over a patient.

A medic ---not wearing burqa but only a pretty hijab -lies to the patient that she cannot come into your house to help you as she "is allergic to dogs".

Elderly disabled patient forced to rearrange dog's lock up quarters before the medic condescends to treat her.

Shel1951

For me it boils down to being able to see the face of the person coming towards me.
A lot is told by the expressions on our faces, friendly , unfriendly?, threatening, etc.
I also wouldn't want to come across a person in a full balaclava coming towards me.
I remember a news article where a jewelry shop was raided by 3 men in burka, they couldn't identify them

Your candid attitude is good . However candour is not always safe. Sometimes it is safer and more peaceable not to reveal one's facial expression.

Wearing a burqa is not necessarily a sign of male control.

The burqa is convenient as portable privacy tent for whatever reason. Who among us had never wanted an enveloping garment to slip over the head without all the bother of make-up, bras, deciding what to wear, and what colour to wear.
Not every woman likes to flaunt her body in public or be a clothes horse for some man or other cause.

For me it boils down to being able to see the face of the person coming towards me.
A lot is told by the expressions on our faces, friendly , unfriendly?, threatening, etc.
I also wouldn't want to come across a person in a full balaclava coming towards me.
I remember a news article where a jewelry shop was raided by 3 men in burka, they couldn't identify them

It isn't a religious requirement just a sign that the woman is subservient to a man. So, for me, it has no place in our society and should be banned.

butterandjam

Primrose53

They should be banned in this country, just as they are in some other countries. The article makes it very clear that these women are being controlled and dominated by their fathers/husbands.

THat's the experience and POV of one Moslem woman. She does not speak for all.

Other Moslem women in UK have an entirely opposing POV, based on their different experience. Inform yourself;

voiceofbritishmuslimwomen.co.uk/2024/11/23/ban-the-burqa/

How can we be sure and certain that any Moslem woman saying "Yes it's okay to restrict me" is really speaking with her own voice - or whether she's being pressurised to say "Restrictive garb is okay by me"?

I am struggling with the idea that any woman would genuinely/voluntarily (completely voluntarily - 101% guaranteed) say "Yep...I really really want to wear restrictive clothing". Why would a woman want to be unrecognisable in the street/struggle to manage to eat without getting her food all over her clothes/wonder how her friends were supposed to recognise her/know that deaf people couldnt lipread her, etc unless she'd been pressurised into it (even if only by thinking men might attack her sexually if she dresses normally)?

I still think "We need to stand up for these women - as many of them won't feel free to stand up for themselves - in case of backlash".

After all there were actually women saying they didnt want the right to vote here a hundred odd years back - and I still feel those occasional women saying that must have been pressurised in some way into saying "Yep...that's okay. Don't bother to treat me as a person etc etc. I'm okay with being restricted and being unable to do what I can see men doing". I think it seems to have been better-off women back then actually fighting against our right to vote and I'm guessing they didn't want to get the husband annoyed enough he'd cut off the money stream. I've not heard of any modern day women saying "I don't want my right to vote" and accepting men still get theirs. Of course we want our rights on that - even if we don't bother to use it and go off and have our vote come the elections. I use my vote every time - because I owe it to the Suffragettes to use what they fought for for all of us.

Legislation to control what women where s legislation to control what women wear.

Which country it is in is irrelevant. It’s legislation to control what women wear.

I’m willing to listen to any rational argument as to why governments should control what women wear and why this is not misogynistic.