An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Exactly, there were other reasons, but ths thread is about the burqa, not about Henry VIII and power politics.

One of the reasons, or excuses depending on how you view it, for the Dissolution of the Monasteries, was the dissolute life style of some of the inhabitants of some of the monasteries.

Wyllow3

I'm remembering tales from Cadfael, where posh monks managed still to dress with as much finery as was possible 🙂.

But both are indicators of religion or culture.

Oh yes, that happened very quickly, comfort and warmth and then all the usual temptations of money and power, but the origins were in poverty.

I'm remembering tales from Cadfael, where posh monks managed still to dress with as much finery as was possible 🙂.

But both are indicators of religion or culture.

Wyllow3 you are not correct in the reason monks wear what they do.

Monks, most religious, take vows of poverty, chastity and obiedience. The lead one of these is poverty and the early monks, most from wealthy families shpwed their devotion to their cause and their vow, by wearing exacty the same clothes as the poorest people in society wore, a long shapeless shift tied at the waist with rope. Many Franciscan monks still go around with bare feet in open toes sandals. They see their robe as representing poverty and penance, modesty is the result, but not the aim. These days many monks dress like ordinary men in society.

Wyllow3

Muslim men who wish to follow and respect their dress code also stress modesty and simplicity, by the way, just as Christian Monks do. they are required, if following the requirements, that clothes should not reveal the shape or figure of the body. Obviously its not the same as face coverings, but it's worth noting.

Which is why most of them wear modern western dress.

Muslim men who wish to follow and respect their dress code also stress modesty and simplicity, by the way, just as Christian Monks do. they are required, if following the requirements, that clothes should not reveal the shape or figure of the body. Obviously its not the same as face coverings, but it's worth noting.

Most mosques do not give out the warnings you mention Nannee49 for the same reason the priest at my church does not speak out and condemn them either. Because they would be irrelevant as none of their congregation would ever think of doing such things and are as horrified as we are when they hear about such events.

Agreed again Whitewavemark2 which is why my Sunday mass lace mantilla went straight in the bin when I was an early teen and began to really question what the tenets of Catholicism were about.

And this from a girl who knew every word to "Faith of our Fathers' holy faith and was a bit disturbingly obsessed with the Forty Martyrs at the age of 10.

Just shows what a good old, religiously indoctrinated childhood can make you believe until intellectual rigour kicks in and you begin to think "hmmm...."

Hindu women follow the cultural practice of covering their heads - often leaving their midriff exposed 😊
Can't say we ever saw our neighbour's midriff exposed 😁
However, she did have the most beautiful saris which she wore to work, changing into trousers and t shirts when she got home!

Covering is also a cultural practice widespread amongst all religions which has changed over time.

All mainstream religions have had a requirement that females dress modestly at one time or another. The degree of cover has definitely changed.

When I was a child and young person, women were required to cover their heads when entering church, and women who joined a holy order were covered head to toe - reminiscent of the covers used today by Islamic women. Their lives were completely given over to their god, just as I think followers of Islam feel today. Just listen to the Palestinian peopke talking, god seems to be in every sentence.
Certain women belonging to Jewish sects are required cover their head, and they use a novel way by using quite glamorous wigs.

Hindu women follow the cultural practice of covering their heads - often leaving their midriff exposed 😊

These things change over time. What is clear though is that when a religion and cultural practice feels under pressure the adherents often double down and follow these practices almost as a defence.

Exactly Whitewavemark2as myself and other posters have stated quite a few times upthread.

foxie48 why is there a current advertising campaign about the horror of FGM and help begged to stop it?

Have you missed it?

Why the need for such a huge campaign if it's not common practice, whether illicitly here or abroad?

As for the old trope of me actually knowing any Muslims, just a laughable assumption on your part.

And you haven't given an example of any other faith or ethnic group involved in these practices nor given any information on any leaders of the faith who have actually condemned either practice in spoken or written word.

Do they advise their flocks it's wrong or not? Straight, clear facts would be appreciated rather than woolly supposition.

People are also muddling religion and FGM. It is largely a cultural practice as apposed to religious practice. So, religions including Jewish, Christianity, Islam, have in the past and some still do practice it, largely in North Africa where it coincides with the main religions of lslam and Christianity.

It can be said the same of the burka. It is a cultural practice where the requirement for modesty in women is taken to the extreme.

Nannee49 if you actually believe that Muslims practice FMG and honour killings as a "routine" then I can only assume that you don't actually know any Muslims. I do and I can assure you that they find these practices as abhorrent as I do and would have no problem in reporting them to the police.

Show me another ethnic group and or religion who routinely practice and in some areas actually endorse FGM or killings foxie48 and I will give some thought to your patronising, silly comment about any "confusion" on my behalf.

I've yet to hear of any edict given out at Friday prayers ever, condemning either FGM or the murder of young women, perhaps you can give me information on the numbers and regularity of such condemnation in support your sweeping statement that the majority of Muslims agree with me.

Maybe it's you who needs more education as to what abhorence of a vile culture as opposed to the easy term of "racism" actually is? After all, human sacrifice was once a very commonly accepted practice across many cultures, races and creeds.

Nannee49 the only problem with your post is you seem to be confused about what racism actually is. I don't think anyone on this thread defends illegal behaviour ie FMG, honour killings in any way. It is not the racist to condemn these behaviours and I haven't seen a single post that suggests that it is. What is potentially racist is the stereotyping of certain illegal behaviours as typical of an ethnic group or as an accepted cultural practice. FMG, for example, is practiced in some communities but it neither a religious practice nor is it acceptable or legal in those countries where in the past it's been seen as a cultural norm. So, feel free to state your abhorance of these practices, you are in good company. You are quite correct in objecting to these practices and the majority of Muslims will agree with you.

Thanks Oreo

Nannee49

Yes,Eloethan hate can only breed more hate and it isn't a one way thing.

You're absolutely correct in saying there was a complete denial by the oppressors at the time of the empire to engage in any way with the countries they had pillaged but have we not evolved as a society since then? Women, that's us, didn't even have the vote for God's sake!

And I also totally agree with your view on organised religion, responsible for so many ills.

But, I strongly disagree with your view of rascism being bandied about regarding the calling out of horrific practices like FGM and so called "honour" killings. I WILL be pompous and judgmental about anyone who adheres to such a different moral code of callously, determindly inflicting suffering on little girls and women.

Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone adopted your spirit of "hey, guys, let's all loosen up here and everything will be cool" then no female would go in fear of being cut in their most intimate of places or being strangled and shoved into a suitcase for shame.

Wow, really good post!😃

Eloethan How can criticising the burqa be racist when the vast majority of women of all ethnicities and cultures do not wear it and we are all well aware of that and have always made that clear.

As for your comments on Brtiains not adapting to cultural norms in countries we colonised. Show me an invading power from the Romans on that did - anywhere. Look at China now, and the horrors it is imposing on the Uighurs. People emigrtaing from one culture to another are usually expected to assimilate, learn the language etc. Assimilating into the national culture and keep one's cultural identity are not impossible.

How anyone can look how the government is Afghanistan is using the burqa, to eliminate women from doing anything in society or being anything but invisible procreators of boys, and then define opposing the burga as racist defeats me.

In fact we absorbed much from all the countries we claimed mastery over. Just look at the loan words in our language the cuisines, the fabrics, patterns etc etc.

Yes,Eloethan hate can only breed more hate and it isn't a one way thing.

You're absolutely correct in saying there was a complete denial by the oppressors at the time of the empire to engage in any way with the countries they had pillaged but have we not evolved as a society since then? Women, that's us, didn't even have the vote for God's sake!

And I also totally agree with your view on organised religion, responsible for so many ills.

But, I strongly disagree with your view of rascism being bandied about regarding the calling out of horrific practices like FGM and so called "honour" killings. I WILL be pompous and judgmental about anyone who adheres to such a different moral code of callously, determindly inflicting suffering on little girls and women.

Wouldn't it be lovely if everyone adopted your spirit of "hey, guys, let's all loosen up here and everything will be cool" then no female would go in fear of being cut in their most intimate of places or being strangled and shoved into a suitcase for shame.

Those who speak of "when in Rome ...." seem to have pushed to the back of their minds the long period of time when many countries were ruled by the British Empire, and other powerful European countries. As I said before, they had no intentions whatsoever of adapting to the dress and cultural norms of the countries they occupied. So why are some people so outraged that people with different religions and cultural practices are reluctant to change their ways. Why do we feel it was OK for us to retain our way of life in a country that we forcibly took over and yet there is outrage from some quarters when incoming people want to do the same.

I agree with Babs that this constant criticism of women who wear burkas is just a flimsy disguise for racism. Sometimes I am surprised at what some women wear and think it inadvisable - eg skirts so miniscule that you can see be-thonged bottoms going up the escalator. However, what other people wear is their business and I think most people would be outraged if a law was brought in to prevent women from exposing their bodies.

Muslims feel particularly under scrutiny and subject to criticism at this time, and the only way they feel they can oppose this constant carping is to show their pride in their culture.

Personally, I don't like any religions as I feel they are overwhelmingly male-dominated and are often creating division. However my feeling is that if people keep getting criticised and targetted for their beliefs and practices they will become even more entrenched in them. So I would like to see people being less pompous and judgmental of people who are different from them, and then maybe everyone will loosen up a bit and get along better. After all, hate can only breed more hate.

And two wrongs never make a right.

Of course there are men in the UK who repress their wives, it's still a dreadful, shocking state of affairs but the huge, obvious difference is, and I surely shouldn't need to point this out, in the UK we women have a voice, we can shout from the rooftops if we so desire and no-one can shut us up.

Brave, brave women have brought about changes in the law so that coercive control is a crime.
We cannot allow that to be diluted in any way.

sue421

If I went to one of the countries that demanded I follow their culture, I would comply. In this country the Burkha is not of our culture. Why do we accept this practise? As a country are we too accepting that other cultures repress their women. We need to be more in control of our own culture.

I agree, Sue.

We could easily ban the burqa and the niqab here at least.
Politics isn’t it? Afraid of losing the Muslim votes.