An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Oh and of course we were told we were doing feminism wrong then as well.

I again have very little concern about who is offended. This was again something that was thrown at feminists in the gender debate. Many of us have learnt many lessons from that time. One being that absolute danger of be kind.

Galaxy

I am happy to talk about Jewish traditions. There are of course numerous accusations of racism on this thread.

Quite frankly there have been racist comments made, am not sure how numerous they are and am not about to check, nor am I going to waste time tittle tattling about who said what and when.
Racism against Muslims is at record levels in the UK and I do see that reflected on this site, of course antisemitism is also at record levels but I do not see that reflected in the same way on this site.
It appears that one form of racism has become more acceptable than any other, others can dispute that robustly, I expect as much, but believe me I have Muslim members of the family and Muslim friends and they would feel offended by what has been said on this thread, not because they wear a burka or even know anyone who does, but because this topic is a very thin disguise for racist content.
Liberating women from patriarchal constructs of which religion is one affects women all over the world and just honing in on a very small minority because it suits a racist agenda makes a mockery of what feminism is all about.

As an aside when I reported my own post that I posted on the wrong thread I was really impressed with how quickly they dealt with it, especially on a weekend.

And if I reported Iam64 ( which obviously I have no reason to) the moderators would quite rightly ignore me.

In my post I did point out that patriarchal control of women is not exclusive to one religion/demographic, it is present in all the Abrahamic faiths and indeed mere cults that spring up from time to time. Coercive control by men over women and their lives has been with us since the beginning of time. I think it's fair to say amongst Muslims, Christians and Jews, there are those who will adhere loosely to their faiths but at the same time wear religion very lightly and don't follow the more unhinged diktats. It's when religions veer off into the extremes they become so dangerous. I include the one I was brought up in. As a teenager, I was completely repulsed when I first read about the Spanish Inquisition, it just made me hate the whole hierarchy of the Catholic church. Religion is ok until it starts to exert extreme control, proselytise and will not tolerate other people's beliefs.

CariadAgain

Babs03

Galaxy

I don't really understand what you mean, are you saying we can only talk about things that are politicised. I don't agree obviously.

Well if all discussions are welcome how about discussing married female Hasidic Jews who wear wigs, layers of clothes and thick stockings when married and live in strict patriarchal communities . And let’s see how quickly comments are taken down and posters accused of antisemitism.
You see we actually can’t talk about anything, unless it is pertaining to a group that is fair game right now.
But if we can talk about it let’s do that and talk about liberating other women from different groups in the name of balance.

Agreed Babs.

Off to google for examples of antisemitism - as I have no idea what anyone means when they throw that word around.

I mentioned the Hasidic Jewish community earlier, particularly the covering of hair by wigs. No reported me for anti semitism because my comment wasn’t anti semitic. I was adding that community of women to other faith groups who appear to fear men will lose control if confronted by hair, bare arms, legs or hint on cleavage

I do hope google ensures you find you begin to “understand what anyone means when they throw that word around “

As I think I have been made clear I ignore them, along with words such as fascist, far right, etc.

I am happy to talk about Jewish traditions. There are of course numerous accusations of racism on this thread.

Babs03

Galaxy

I don't really understand what you mean, are you saying we can only talk about things that are politicised. I don't agree obviously.

Well if all discussions are welcome how about discussing married female Hasidic Jews who wear wigs, layers of clothes and thick stockings when married and live in strict patriarchal communities . And let’s see how quickly comments are taken down and posters accused of antisemitism.
You see we actually can’t talk about anything, unless it is pertaining to a group that is fair game right now.
But if we can talk about it let’s do that and talk about liberating other women from different groups in the name of balance.

Agreed Babs.

Off to google for examples of antisemitism - as I have no idea what anyone means when they throw that word around.

Galaxy

I don't really understand what you mean, are you saying we can only talk about things that are politicised. I don't agree obviously.

Well if all discussions are welcome how about discussing married female Hasidic Jews who wear wigs, layers of clothes and thick stockings when married and live in strict patriarchal communities . And let’s see how quickly comments are taken down and posters accused of antisemitism.
You see we actually can’t talk about anything, unless it is pertaining to a group that is fair game right now.
But if we can talk about it let’s do that and talk about liberating other women from different groups in the name of balance.

Babs03

I can’t think of a faith where waking around naked would be required but there are probably a few cults that require this.

What's the difference between a faith and a cult? Both rely on belief not proof.

I don't really understand what you mean, are you saying we can only talk about things that are politicised. I don't agree obviously.

rejected

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

Well, of course women who choose to wear the burka are going to feel and speak positively about wearing it.

I don’t know where your quote comes from but if you put into Google something like “How do women who have reflected the burka feel about doing so” you’ll get many very different quotes about how they view it as a symbol of oppression and blame.

Another view would be ‘How do women who are forced to wear the burka feel about doing so” but I believe it isn’t really possible to garner those views.

Babs03

I can’t think of a faith where waking around naked would be required but there are probably a few cults that require this.

It isn’t faith that requires women to wear a burqa or niqab it’s the culture of wherever they come from in a heavily male dominant society.

Galaxy

I am not targeting, i am discussing an issue relating to feminism. By that metric discussing the issues of the evangelical right would be none if our business.

No it wouldn’t be any of our business unless the evangelical right was politicised in the US which it is. Just as Islam is politicised in Iran so is fair play to discuss this.
And I know there are groups of women in both instances robustly fighting for women’s rights, which should never be at the whim of political leaders or regimes.

Posted on wrong thread.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I am not targeting, i am discussing an issue relating to feminism. By that metric discussing the issues of the evangelical right would be none if our business.

I can’t think of a faith where waking around naked would be required but there are probably a few cults that require this.

Maremia

Of course we all have the right to believe in our own traditions, as long as long as they are not coercive or harmful.
Coercion and harm are, in my view, wrong.
It is wrong for women to be forced to wear a burka or equivalent.
It is equally wrong for women to be forced to not wear a burka, if they wish to, and is not harmful.

Except that if I chose to walk naked through the streets I would be arrested. Where is the difference? What I would be doing is not harmful.

Nobody is looking over there. And is supremely arrogant of us to suppose that brave Muslim feminist groups in countries where women are being oppressed are not working tirelessly to help fellow Muslim women. That is their fight and they really don’t need us to tell them we know best . All women the world over face their own fight, even those in western countries where domestic violence and rape are not the monopoly of those from a different culture.
And the evangelical movement in the US has a pretty dreadful record when it comes to women’s rights.
Maybe if we put our own house in order we can then smugly take the moral high ground. Until then let’s stop targeting a tiny percentage of women and start targeting men in our own communities.

Crikey these arguments of look over there are familiar. Thankfully feminists ignored them the last time.

Of course we all have the right to believe in our own traditions, as long as long as they are not coercive or harmful.
Coercion and harm are, in my view, wrong.
It is wrong for women to be forced to wear a burka or equivalent.
It is equally wrong for women to be forced to not wear a burka, if they wish to, and is not harmful.