Is this fair?

What a stupid comment, if you have nothing constructive to say - say nothing!

Imagine a family that are independently wealthy billionaires who also get financial support from less well off taxpayers. They have so much money that every child born into the family becomes instant millionaires. Imagine such a family with so much wealth that the actual amount is totally guarded from public eyes - even after death. You cannot even see their Wills despite everybody else’s Will being public. Imagine too having so much money and influence you can pay Twelve Million pounds to buy off a sexual exploitation complaint that you claim you were not responsible for. Imagine the same family having so many homes they can swap them amongst themselves and fill them with staff while the country they claim to serve continues to suffer a homelessness crisis. Then imagine how outraged you might be to find out the members of this family do not even pay the market rent for such properties and instead pay ‘peppercorn’ rents.

I think I would look to rectify this historic abuse of unearned privilege before getting so outraged at the two child benefit cap being lifted.

There have always been those who 'milk' the system - that is the nature of a society where we support those who need it. If we are to continue to do that, then we need to accept that. Having said that, of course checks should be made, but the number of children should not be controlled by access to benefits - that's not fair on the children who did not ask to be born.

Flakesdayout

No its not fair. The State Pension is not enough. £35k would be lovely. Whilst I appreciate there is child poverty out there and when the child benefit cap is raised it should be given in vouchers. From past working experience some families were getting more on benefits that I was for my full time job role. Some had the nice big tv, latest phones, false lashes, nails done every week and lip fillers. Some knew how to play the system. Many had "depression and anxiety," like many genuine people do, but some used this to their own advantage and really played the system. I appreciate there are some really genuine cases out there, I know I have worked with them, but the benefits system needs a complete overhaul and it should be more lucrative for people to work, not to stay at home

I know I wonder about "depression and anxiety" when that is an official verdict. Reason being that many years ago (the 1970s) I had to find out how to get on the Council waiting list for housing (as I only knew how one buys a house and hadnt got the foggiest how to get on a housing waiting list).

After I'd binned the instant official advice I got of "Get pregnant maid" (eeeek!!!!! no chance) I hadn't got enough points to even get on it and my bedsit got re-measured and had mysteriously changed size to be even smaller and I still didn't have enough points and got told "There's two ways you can get some more and that will be just enough to get you onto being on a list for housing association property". One of those two ways was "Get your doctor to certify you as having 'Depression' illness and you will get two more points".

Being the 1970s (a VERY different climate to now) my response was "I can't do that!!!! Have Depression down on my medical records!!!! I'd suffer for that in other ways (eg problems getting jobs and there was a stigma generally to saying that)".

So I got told the other way to get those vital couple of extra points and I used that one instead (ie a letter from my employer saying it was vital that someone with my skills shouldnt be pushed to move out of my city by our housing prices being unaffordable for me) and that did the trick and stopped what I saw as discrimination against me for NOT having children.

I worked from age 17 - 62, then part time to 64. I’m pleased to still be here 12 years later.
I’m on school pick up, sleepover, school drop off for two grandchildren tomorrow.
I returned two plus their dog after a weekend, yesterday. Three of their parents self employed sonhiursvvariable. One in full time employment , away for three nights for work commitments

I’m with Stone of Destiny’s summary of Labour being blamed for the legacy of the Tory years

Beggars belief that so many on here think the biggest problem with the UK is the removal of the two child cap.

The problem with Government finances is money lost through far too much inefficiency and wastage.

Rather it’s bursting at the seams with older people, most of whom don’t work and live off their state pension and benefits for many many years after retiring
Beggars belief that people think the problem with the country is far too many old folk, not working, drawing state pensions and benefits. A state pension is a benefit too btw.
Oh, and costing the NHS £millions, sorry £billions.
Perhaps something should be done about them, we've had our day and are neither use nor ornament apparently.

Dear Diary: Reminder to self - child care on Thursday and Friday this week.

Beggars belief that so many on here think the biggest problem with the UK is the removal of the two child cap. Just been through 14 years of Tory mismanagement where even 5 prime ministers couldn’t improve things. We have this government in just over a year and people expect miracles.

I have worked all my life and have only two children by choice. Yes - there is an issue with people expanding their responsibilities beyond what they can afford. There is also an issue with multi millionaires avoiding paying taxes into the countries coffers. There is an issue too with the ‘sick note’ mentality. There is an issue with short sighted voters who forget just how misled they were into supporting Brexit and who the politicians were behind that madness.
This two child policy change is not the most worrying thing for me. Far more worrying is the fact that we have the rise of Fascism and the normalising of racism in our country. We have Reform feeding this daily and groups of idlers with no agenda other than to divide our communities.

This country is not bursting at rhe seams with young people, schools are closing because their numbers have fallen so low.
Rather it’s bursting at the seams with older people, most of whom don’t work and live off their state pension and benefits for many many years after retiring.

Was there anyone working in the household? If not then for her children sake not working would be a bad idea.

No I think I would because it was a way back into work. There’s so much research about the benefits of work. It would add to her cv, her skills and open up gateways to career progression

When my children were small, early 80s, I had to work to provide us with a manageable income. A young lady in the same village had applied for a job where I worked.
My instant response was to offer her a free lift, simply because I was going and my salary would be more than her entry level. She would be giving up her 80% rate reduction, her rent paid, and benefit income, so working would give her an income of £5 pw more than currently.
This did not allow for new clothes, or any of the work social stuff like collections or the coffee club. It would take her away from her small children all day, and parcel them around friends and neighbours for the school run.
I advised her not to - would you?

Absolutely not. It stinks

Jenken

I keep reading that single mothers are rubbing their hands in delight and now planning more children.

Really??? I was a single parent for 9 years, and worked full time.

Many of the Royal family ended up as lone parents, don’t diss single mums please!

Lathyrus3

68% of 8.3 million on Universal Credit.

That’s just over 5 million people who can live without having to work just on this benefit.

Which includes the disabled and those too unwell to work!

GrannyGravy13

Tokerer reserve my wrath ? What a strange thing to say 🤷‍♀️

My posts on this thread haven’t been angry in any way.

I wholeheartedly support benefits for those who need them.

Tokerer reserve my wrath ? What a strange thing to say

Tokerer says we should reserve our wrath for tax avoiders which includes anyone who has an ISA, pays into a pension scheme, uses Salary Sacrifice etc, which means a large part of the population.
That's a lot of wrath.

I keep reading that single mothers are rubbing their hands in delight and now planning more children.

No its not fair. The State Pension is not enough. £35k would be lovely. Whilst I appreciate there is child poverty out there and when the child benefit cap is raised it should be given in vouchers. From past working experience some families were getting more on benefits that I was for my full time job role. Some had the nice big tv, latest phones, false lashes, nails done every week and lip fillers. Some knew how to play the system. Many had "depression and anxiety," like many genuine people do, but some used this to their own advantage and really played the system. I appreciate there are some really genuine cases out there, I know I have worked with them, but the benefits system needs a complete overhaul and it should be more lucrative for people to work, not to stay at home

Tokerer reserve my wrath ? What a strange thing to say 🤷‍♀️

My posts on this thread haven’t been angry in any way.

I wholeheartedly support benefits for those who need them.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Pantglas2

I’ve noticed on this forum that anyone agreeing that parents on benefits shouldn’t have more than 2 children (=more benefits) is told to consider the poverty those children live with.

However the parents themselves aren’t told to consider it before they have those children…🤷‍♀️ why’s that?

I agree Pantsglas
We get told “it’s not the children's fault they need breakfast clubs”.

Puts me, you and others in the frame for sounding like heartless judgemental bitches.

In my experience a lot of children in breakfast club are there because their parents go out to work and they're enabled to work a longer day if they go. My grandchildren go, and my daughter gains half an hour. They previously went to the paid breakfast club which gave her an extra hour and a quarter to work, but the cost has gone up to cover the cost of the "free" club

Tokerer

Lathyrus3

“The couple have produced another five workers to go into the system”.

Unlikely Tokerer.

Not when they know you don’t have to work. There’s no reason for them to do that.

Oh well. Immigrants will have to do it then. Like the 10 million who have come here in the last 20 years to help pay for the extra 2 million pensioners that we have....

Another attempt at deflection (sigh).

Am I witnessing the return of the great deflector?😬🤔

Wised
Autocorrect didn't like that.

Tokerer

GrannyGravy13

Tokerer

GrannyGravy13

I stand by my opinion that benefits should be a safety net not a lifestyle choice

The example in the OP appears to be a ^lifestyle choice^

Here's another way of looking at it. It takes an extra five workers to pay your pension, I believe. So that couple have produced another five workers to go in to the system.

A pension isn't a savings scheme. If so who paid the first pensions? It is a contract with the Government. (According to Martin Lewis.)

The people working today pay the pensions of the people who retired yesterday.

Having paid NI until the age of 66, along with still paying tax, I stand by my post that benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

If someone is unable to work due to disability that is a different matter.

If someone has a sudden illness and needs support of course they should be able to access it.

If someone is made redundant they should be able to claim benefits whilst being helped back into work.

Benefits should not be an option for the work shy and those who know how to play the system.

May I humbly suggest that you save your wrath for the "successful" people who routinely indulge in tax avoidance. It costs us FAR MORE than the benefits bill. From sole traders to large multinationals - they are all at it...

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal.
Anyone who has an ISA is avoiding tax, albeit in a small way. Rachel Reeves has wished up to that now!

Tax evasion is illegal and so many of the very well-paid and wealthy know just how to do that.

My late DD decided not to have any children as in her view there were too many people in the world already. Both DSs have only one as they felt they could afford only one. Watched
a young single mother with her eyebrows microbladed, false eyelashes and talon nails declare how she will be abe to feed her children now that the child cap had been
removed. All 4 children had been born after the chid cap had been introduced. Heard that a lot, will it only be pensioners using food banks next year.

Lathyrus3

“The couple have produced another five workers to go into the system”.

Unlikely Tokerer.

Not when they know you don’t have to work. There’s no reason for them to do that.

Oh well. Immigrants will have to do it then. Like the 10 million who have come here in the last 20 years to help pay for the extra 2 million pensioners that we have....

MaizieD

How about if the government removed the third, and any subsequent, babies at birth?

Would that keep you all happy?

Thank you for a bit of balance.
It's perfectly possible for people to feel they can afford more than 2 children but then circumstances may easily change. Redundancy, illness, death etc can happen to any family. The last thing those in difficulty need is to have people like some on here dismissing them as 'feckless'. The only difference between them and us may well be.. luck.