Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

*smaller toilet area as opposed to the locker room

I think it must be awful for the trans women who have always been with us but quietly went about living their lives until the vociferous and increasingly aggressive amongst their numbers started pushing the issue and asserting what they perceived to be their rights.

I don't think we've ever reached here thank God what previously happened in the US and Canada whose individual stances were absolute in trouncing women's rights in favour of that aggressive minority. Exemplified by the "Lea Thomas" debacle. The trans woman swimmer, who could never disguise their male physique, was granted the whole of the locker room to change. Meanwhile the actual women who had raised objections to his eyeing them up whilst in a state of undress, were told they were bigots, but of course! and then were forced into the much smaller and not really conducive to stripping off and on whilst the man had the luxury of the entire communal changing area to his self.

The trans lobby have successfully pushed some sound bites that actually can’t be verified like “trans people are more likely to be harmed than cause harm,”

It sounds as if that’s right because it fits in with other sound bites.

‘One of the most marginalised groups in society.”
“Subject to discrimination.”

Except we know that in recent years trans people have not been the most marginalised. Women have. The demands of the trans lobby have caused women to lose not just their spaces, but their jobs, to have their health put at risk, to be prevented from accessing vital services and to be threatened and ostracised.

The claim that trans people are more at risk than women is not only vague but cannot be substantiated, particularly since there has been a substantial period until very recently when crimes by transwomen were recorded as crimes by females.

Add in the persecution that any female was subjected to if she dared to complain or even question the actions of a transwoman towards her and all anyone can say is that we cannot possibly know that trans people are more likely to be harmed.

We have to challenge these soundbites that are reiterated as facts,

Namsnanny I “claimed” not to understand, I’ve never stated I’m not “well informed” about trans people, one can be well informed and still not fully understand that persons views, beliefs and motivation.

I also have no idea why that matters. Gay men aren't welcome in women's spaces either, whether they are pretending to be women or not.

The numerous examples of them being in relationships with women.
Sone men who pretend to be women are straight, some men who pretend to be women are gay ( attracted to other men) and some are bisexual.
They are all men pretending to be women.

Btw way, where’s your evidence that trans men are usually straight men pretending to be trans in order to be sexual predators?

I completely accept that trans women, biologically male, are likely to be larger and stronger, I also accept that some “straight” men have pretended to be trans in order to access women. They are criminals!

Doodledog

People on threads about trans rights versus women’s rights so often suggest third spaces, as though they will just appear from the skies. In existing buildings there are often no spare rooms for reallocation, so someone else will have to be inconvenienced to pacify the ‘tiny minority of the most vulnerable people who are at risk of self harm if they don’t get their own way’.

It can cost a fortune to reroute plumbing in old buildings, so as well as evicting people from the new space the NHS would have to find £££ that could have been spent on creating space for people being treated in corridors.

Carving up existing rooms for a ‘tiny minority’ makes no sense either - if one in a thousand staff would use the room, how big should it be? My guess is not big enough to be useable, and then there would be complaints of discrimination if the trans changing rooms are significantly smaller than others.

Do we need four spaces as well as the disabled facilities? Male, female, transmen and transwomen? Who else ‘needs’ to be accommodated?

We have single sex spaces for a reason. Women are at risk from some men, and more so when the women are vulnerable and/or in a state of undress. Transwomen are men, usually straight men, and are usually stronger than women. If transwomen are allowed in women’s spaces they are no longer single sex, and the women are vulnerable to both physical assault and to being made to feel uncomfortable by the presence of males in what would be a single sex space.

It’s not about tolerance or ‘being kind’, and ‘just provide third spaces’ is a facile response.

So what’s your solution then? Place the trans person back into make changing rooms? I see no reason why an area cannot be sectioned (if and when needed) for anyone.

Very rude to call my suggestions “facile”

Mollygo I’m assuming your FB story, is about a trans man? No, of course he wasn’t in any way right, he was a criminal.

The point is most trans people are more likely to be harmed than cause harm.

Harold Shipman was a doctor, he was also a serial killer, this doesn’t make all doctors serial killers.

You could apply this to so many professions, teachers, priests, police officer etc etc etc have all been found guilty of horrendous crimes, they are criminals first irrespective of their chosen professional.

Has Rose actually ever been charged with any crime, other than being “weird” and “making people feel uncomfortable” ?

Has Rose been subject to complaints from female patients?

I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking.

Just because we fail to understand people’s “choices” within their personal lives doesn’t give us the right to condemn them.

People on threads about trans rights versus women’s rights so often suggest third spaces, as though they will just appear from the skies. In existing buildings there are often no spare rooms for reallocation, so someone else will have to be inconvenienced to pacify the ‘tiny minority of the most vulnerable people who are at risk of self harm if they don’t get their own way’.

It can cost a fortune to reroute plumbing in old buildings, so as well as evicting people from the new space the NHS would have to find £££ that could have been spent on creating space for people being treated in corridors.

Carving up existing rooms for a ‘tiny minority’ makes no sense either - if one in a thousand staff would use the room, how big should it be? My guess is not big enough to be useable, and then there would be complaints of discrimination if the trans changing rooms are significantly smaller than others.

Do we need four spaces as well as the disabled facilities? Male, female, transmen and transwomen? Who else ‘needs’ to be accommodated?

We have single sex spaces for a reason. Women are at risk from some men, and more so when the women are vulnerable and/or in a state of undress. Transwomen are men, usually straight men, and are usually stronger than women. If transwomen are allowed in women’s spaces they are no longer single sex, and the women are vulnerable to both physical assault and to being made to feel uncomfortable by the presence of males in what would be a single sex space.

It’s not about tolerance or ‘being kind’, and ‘just provide third spaces’ is a facile response.

*Rose

iam64

Just to be very clear, I did say lesbians “might” look at other women in a sexual way, it doesn’t make them predatory, I simply meant a lesbian might find one of the nurses attractive.

As for the “do you know any lesbians?”

The answer is yes, and very well, in our household, currently living at home are our two lesbian daughters, our lesbian daughter in law, we also have a lesbian niece and a homosexual nephew. One of my oldest and dearest friends is homosexual.

As mentioned before I also have trans friends.

My point is many trans people simply want to live their lives without fear or prejudice, the same as us.

Trans people make up a fairly small percentage of our society, and even smaller proportion take part in professional sport and a very small percentage are dangerous to women (or anyone), in fact trans people are far more likely to be targeted by hate crime or harassment than be sexual predators.

I do agree that if even one nurse felt uncomfortable changing with Rise, separate changing facilities for Rose should have been found. Let’s be clear though, no one was ever naked.

Cossy

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do

But that has always been the case, because lesbians are women, in a women-only space. We appear to have been able to accommodate this though it's possible some may have found the experience uncomfortable but not threatening; and that could be because the female 'gaze' does not hold the same potential threat as the male-gaze.

???

Oreo

A cupboard would do nicely 😜

Naughty 😂😂

I read that Nurse Rose had stopped taking their meds as they hoped to get their wife pregnant. Also, that s/he stared at and asked other nurses when they were getting changed.

Allira

Cossy

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

Oh goodness.

Are you saying that all lesbians are what you call sex pests? 😲

What a strange attitude, lumping lesbians together with predatory men. Do you actually know any lesbian women well?

Three types of spaces? Why not?

TerriBull

Where possible there should be a third space, otherwise the individual's safety could and has been compromised. I agree with Oreo you simply cannot be on the fence about this matter.

As reported earlier this week, it certainly didn't go well for the trans man who was admitted to to a male psychiatric unit and was raped within an hour of their arrival by two of the male patients already there. That person was rendered very vulnerable.

Its not just trans men that get raped in institutions or prisons it is a common experience, being obviously trans probably made it much more likely. All the they can do is segregate the different categories of inmates, obviously it didnt happen in this case. Womens institutions are much the same, both are full of seriously dangerous criminals as well as minor offenders.

nanna8

They have a choice of unisex toilets so I don’t see why they don’t have unisex changing rooms available and then people can choose whether they go to men, women’s or unisex changing rooms. Shouldn’t be an issue really.

As I said above, in some instances where those facilities have been provided, trans-identifying men have refused to use the unisex facilities and insisted on forcing their way into the women's facilities instead. Which says it all, really...

They have a choice of unisex toilets so I don’t see why they don’t have unisex changing rooms available and then people can choose whether they go to men, women’s or unisex changing rooms. Shouldn’t be an issue really.

Cossy

Rosie51

Of course to allow one 'special man' into the female changing room but to keep all the other males out is indirect discrimination against the other men, since they are all exactly the same sex.

Oh that’s a bit far.

I know many of you on here “don’t believe” in trans people, but there are genuinely people out there who firmly believe that they are born into the wrong genders body. I know one, a female to male and I’d defy anyone who didn’t know he wasn’t born male. He, of course, has to use male loos etc and has chosen only to have surgery on his bosons, not “down below”.

I don’t pretend to understand it all, but I do have enough respect for him and his wife to call then man and wife.

Oh I don't think any one on here is denying trans people exist, just many of us don't deny science and know that in the history of the world nobody has ever changed their sex.

It is widely acknowledged that testosterone is such a powerful hormone many female to male transitioners 'pass'. The effect can be quite profound, although of course it won't alter the skeleton so the hips will be of female proportion not typical male, and they remain female sex. Male to female is far harder to pass because the male skeleton is quite different to the female one and oestrogen is nowhere near as powerful as testosterone. Whether one passes or not is not the issue, people's biological sex remains unaltered.

Transwoman like Rose don't want third spaces, they want to use female spaces, the validation they think that brings, and for some the thrill of forcing unconsenting women to partake in their fantasy.

I have no problem with people dressing how they like but when it comes to women's single sex places then all males, no matter what they 'feel like' need to stay out. My husband wouldn't be a threat to any woman but I still don't think he should be allowed into the women's changing room.

As for your comment about lesbians that is beneath you, and an insult to them.

Cossy

ViceVersa

Women have the right to get changed in single sex spaces - that is the law. If you let a biological man - even one who now claims to identify as a woman - into those spaces, then they are no longer single sex.

Surely the answer is to cater for all, splitting existing changing rooms, to allow two large rooms, male and female, and a third much smaller room.

The trouble is, that where such facilities have been provided - including 'gender neutral' toilets, for example - some trans-identifying men have refused to use them and insisted on forcing their way into the women's facilities instead.

It beggars belief that this hospital trust felt sufficiently confident to go down this road in the first place.
Such muddle headedness, such arrogance, such outright misogyny.
But seriously organisations need to get with the times over this. The obvious first step would have been easy enough: ie provide another space ………or perish the thought get the other biological males who work there to broaden their minds, budge up, make way, etc and accept male to female trans people into their space. It is only fair.

My brother and husband pose no threat to women either, they have no business in women's spaces.
A man who uses womens spaces is by the nature of doing this a threat to women.

Cossy

Surely the answer is to give the small cupboard space to the trans nurse/s.

Not all trans people are obviously trans, and most certainly many pose no threat to women at all.

Straight men, like the ones who pose as trans or go into gay clubs are far more of a danger, they are not trans at all, just sex pests.

50-60% of men who are claiming to be women, in UK prison have committed sex crimes.

Other countries stats show similar stats.

I think that shows a high percentage of problems in that community.

The problem with your last paragraph is how is anyone supposed to know who is or isn't 'pretending'?

The mental state of mind that encourages one to think in terms of questioning what sex one is, is a type of pretending also.

Autogynephilia does exist, and part of the fetish is to have others 'play' their part in supporting the mind set.

I believe it is incumbent on adults to protect childrens brains and bodies from indoctrination leading to mutilation.

To protect children and women from males who 'feel' a certain way is common sense.

BTW if you stop viewing the problem through the lens of "us and them" and therefore feeling guilty or confused (you claimed not to be well informed or understand?), and rather took the point of view that maybe the compassionate and helpful attitude to the individual who thinks this way, could be to not support the mindset, but to support therapy and long term care to explore why.

Afterall, it has often been said we cant just 'decide' to change our race at will. This is no different, but far more damaging to children and individuals who have been captured by this mindset.

My thoughts are we now need to concentrate on how this subject is being taught (or should it even be considered a subject to be taught?) in our schools.

I feel there is little attention giving to this.