Not ‘ school-ready’.

Yes the dreaded nappy bucket was certainly an encouragement to potty/toilet train

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I very much doubt the problems are widespread. they are probably concentrated in areas of deprivation. Oh, and it was single parents who got the blame back then - the ones who didn't work

It isn’t about ‘areas of deprivation’. A mother interviewed about this on TV very articulately explained her view that if her child isn’t ‘ready’ to be toilet trained they will just kick back. I think if they had to wash nappies their children would be ‘ready’ for toilet training much sooner.

I am wondering if we are all thinking of ""toilet trained' in the same way?
I understand toilet trained to mean the child can take itself to the toilet, take down its clothes, sit on toilet/potty, do whatever, wipe its bottom, pull up clothes and wash hands.
And be able to do the same at night time or go through the night dry.
I think this is not achievable until 2 to 3 years old.
A friend used to say her son was toilet trained at under a year simply because she held him over a potty several/many times a day and was often lucky. He wasn't talking at that age and was unable to ask for the potty and certainly couldn't walk to get there himself.

I think myDDs were dry during the day at about 2 1/2 maybe a bit before as that was summer time and easier. Dry all night was a bit longer, but we often did a late night trip with half asleep child before we went to bed.

I think a lot of shaming went on in our days. You would be ashamed if your children were still not toilet trained by the time they went to school. People would have roundly condemned you. That has gone now, it is almost a normal thing. It used to be that most were potty trained way before the age of 2, just an expectation. Certainly all mine were, mostly before even 18 months old but then what kid wants to have a bulky and uncomfortable cloth nappy?

My child was toilet trained and out of nappies by 15 months of age.

eazybee

We know, Doodledog, because some of us have spent forty years working with young children and their parents; through our own childhoods and experience as working mothers. This phenomenon of young children arriving at school untrained is relatively new, as are is the plethora of excuses. How on earth did mothers do it when there was limited indoor sanitation, and absolutely no Sure Start? Mothers living in the worst conditions frequently did work then, and they would have been ashamed to behave as some mothers are now.

I think most of us on here have decades of experience of children, as well as experience of our own childhoods and experience as mothers. Other posters who have worked in early years education have said that these problems have been going on for many years, so it maybe it is not a relatively new problem.

Anyway, my question was about why people think they know what is going on in other people’s lives, and that they know better how others should behave. Writing off whole groups of people as lazy or ‘more interested in xyz’ based on passing them on the street can only be speculation, surely?

watermeadow

Children here start school earlier than most countries. Summer-born children are only just four when they start full-time formal school. It’s too soon for those slow to mature or from bad homes.

Children should be toilet trained by four!

M0nica

If a child had had breakfast at home, school dinner at lunchtime then cheese on toast seems a perfectly acceptable evening meal. Yes, possiblynot every day, but some children do get fixated on eating one particular dish, and cheese ontoast is much better for them than many another.

The problem is that 'school dinners' are not like the dinners we had at school years ago.

They could consist of a baguette, slice of pizza, or a good meal. There is far too much choice. The one positive thing is that parents can see on an App exactly what their child has chosen

My three children were born in the nineties and definitely had to be toilet trained before starting playgroup at three. They also mostly wore disposable nappies as did my friends' children. At this time, the thinking was that girls were generally toilet trained around their third birthday and boys around six months later. My younger son and daughter reached these milestones. My oldest son, who is autistic and eventually went to a special school, was finally dry just before his third birthday. I was horrified at the time because I didn't realise he was autistic - he was my oldest child. No children started school in nappies except for disabled children and they mostly went to special schools from day one. The only person I knew in my own generation who wore nappies at school had spina bifida. It is not only feckless parents who are delaying toilet training, either. I was shocked when a very middle class parent was changing the nappy of their very tall, bright and articulate 3½ year old daughter.

If a child had had breakfast at home, school dinner at lunchtime then cheese on toast seems a perfectly acceptable evening meal. Yes, possiblynot every day, but some children do get fixated on eating one particular dish, and cheese ontoast is much better for them than many another.

when i was a cleaner at an infants and middle school there were children there who were still not toilet trained came in wearing nappies i heard the teachers talking about it also one child when asked what he had for for dinner the night before always said cheese on toast, i dont know if thats all the mother could be bothered to do or if thats all the child would eat

kircubbin2000

Looking at some adults on TV many don't know how to use cutlery or hold a pen properly.

I think we're talking about being able to eat with cutlery, & write with a pen, rather than whether you use those tools in a "U" or "non U" manner.

Later children entered in the term in which they were five, then four, and at one time parents were allowed to delay their child's entry to Reception Class. Not sure if this pertains now.

It was not the case here as DS and DIL were told DGD could start the following year, but would start in Y1 and miss the reception class.
Pointless!

Grannygravy:
What I am trying to say (obviously badly) is why it’s not being recognised that children develop at different ages, dependent on many factors.
It is known and recognised and child development is part of teacher training and implemented in the curriculum. At one time children were not allowed to start school until after the term in which they were five, which meant that older children could receive up to a year extra schooling, recognised on a sliding scale adjusting marks in exams.
Later children entered in the term in which they were five, then four, and at one time parents were allowed to delay their child's entry to Reception Class. Not sure if this pertains now.

For the benefit of Silvertwigs, the post Friday 23rd, 13.01.11 refers to working with children and their parents. It also refer to mothers twice, once referring to the time when there was little indoor sanitary facilities, 1940s to 60s, and also to working mothers at that time. That was a time when childrearing was regarded as woman's work.

Its up to parents to ensure their children can use the toilet and wash their hands and sit at a table to eat a meal, its not a job for teachers they are there to teach. Can’t the school say until they can they cannot start school.. I wouldn't want anyone doing intimate things for mine. I wonder why people have children and leave the raising to others.

Infections

Purple round the mouth was probably Gentian Violet which cleared up all sorts of skin i sections notably impetigo.

jenpax

Geordiegirl1

I recall children at school in my childhood who had many other problems and for longer. Grubby, smelly, who wore wellies all year or plimsolls in winter, some children with persistent nits and who, in those days, had their hair shaved off as thé parents were unable to eradicate them and the home was beyond help. Telltale purple splodges of violet round mouths. These children, shunned at school, will now be grandparents. It’s takes generations, persistence and support, to raise standards of child care, in many instances.

What does purple around the mouth signify?

Gentian Violet was used to treat skin infections and oral thrush I think-I remember children at my school in the early 1960s who had the stains on their skin.

eazybee just mothers? 😡

Cabbie21

The percentage of children not ready for school has increased, 37% I think, in today’s news. Over 25% are not toilet trained.

Of course there will always be children with developmental difficulties, but is this general increase because both parents need to work earn money, so there is not enough time with their children ?
Or is ‘ child-led’ toilet training, feeding etc responsible?

Some children have never experienced books and treat them like tablets or phones.

Guidelines are to be issued, but I would not want to be a Reception teacher these days.

My husband and I have 4 children. We both worked full time and managed to ensure our children were toilet trained by the time they started school! Lack of time is not really a reason, I don’t know what the reasons are though! Maybe too many “influencers” on social media giving ill informed advice rather than parents getting most of their advice from health professionals? This does seem to be a factor in declining rates of childhood vaccinations.

ferry23

In my day as a young parent, they had to be dry before they went to Play School, let alone primary school.

My Mum was a working Mum, and so was I. Being a "busy" parent is a poor excuse. Sorry.

My child (and now her child) wouldn't have ever started school, let alone nursery. It wasn't a lack of trying, she was determined that she wanted to come out of nappies at 18 months old but would be unable to control her bladder the moment she knelt down. The moment she straightened up she was ok again. I would take her to the loo and she would sit on it for ages unable to do a drop. We'd walk away, she'd kneel down (or another movement that pressed on her bladder) and she'd wee again. It took until she was 8 before they did invasive tests and found that she had a very stretchy bladder that didn't get the signal to evacuate. She was put on medication but still has the same problem at the age of 40. Now her 6 year old daughter can go all night but regularly wets and defecates herself even though she is taken to the toilet at intervals. She has seen the incontinence nurse who is baffled and the Doctors think it is an anxiety thing. My daughter is pulling her hair out at the stress of it because she can't keep up with the washing or make changes which will help. Although in every other respect my daughter and grandchild appear physically normal and should be able to be toilet trained, it is not always so clear cut.
When my son had difficulties, the GP wouldn't even send him to the incontinence nurse until he was 8. We bought an alarm because we were determined he would not go through the same embarrassment his sister did. It worked well for him but his congenital condition isn't so bad as his sister's.

I'm not even vaguely shocked by the statistics.
I sit on the bus several days a week and I'm horrified by the way that children are ignored by their parents.
I often meet up with friends in a local cafe and we can't wait to get out as soon as the mums come in .
It's deafening with babies crying and older children screaming and misbehaving whilst their mothers either talk to friends or are glued to their phones.
I've heard them say occasionally,shut the f--k up .
It really doesn't bode well for the future.

I admire Fartooold for getting three children with Downs syndrome dry by age three.

Parents don't have to be tied up with 'phones and technology Sarnia. It's their choice if they put these things before giving their time and attention to their children.

Geordiegirl1

I recall children at school in my childhood who had many other problems and for longer. Grubby, smelly, who wore wellies all year or plimsolls in winter, some children with persistent nits and who, in those days, had their hair shaved off as thé parents were unable to eradicate them and the home was beyond help. Telltale purple splodges of violet round mouths. These children, shunned at school, will now be grandparents. It’s takes generations, persistence and support, to raise standards of child care, in many instances.

What does purple around the mouth signify?

Why are mothers being blamed! Most children have two parents why is it just the mum’s job 🙄