Epstein, so sick of it everywhere.

AmberGran, whilst I agree that there is no logical reason why those with money should be more 'moral' than those without, I can't equate going on a cruise with sex abuse.

Unless you are putting up a case for nobody having more than they need, in which case where do you draw the line? A cup of lentils a day, with electricity on 2 days a week? Would a camping holiday be allowed, if a cruise is immoral? Deciding what others 'need' is always problematic at best.

It should go without saying that I am not remotely condoning anything that happened on Epstein's island - all efforts should be made to prosecute everyone who abused trafficked women and girls, however powerful they may be, but I wonder if there is something about 'alpha men' that predisposes them to treat people as dispensable? Realistically, someone who 'rises to the top' has either been born into power, so has probably grown up surrounded by people who are paid to do as they're told, or they have pushed others out of the way to get there. Business is based on maximising profit, not caring for people, and politics can be ruthless, too. Again, I'm not excusing it, but there has to be a reason why so many powerful men agreed to go. Maybe a first visit might have been 'innocent' (as in they didn't know what would happen), but why would they keep going back? Many people despise what they see as 'weakness' in others, but being 'strong' usually means being willing to hurt others, one way or another, and turning a blind eye when others do it.

We don't know the full story, obviously. Were there several bases on the island, so that guests staying in some of them were cover for ones in the 'central' one? Did different parties have different MOs? Who knows, but the drip feeding of papers is not helping either the victims or any men who might have been there and kept out of the abuse.

It seems clear that there was a blackmail agenda, hence the numerous photos. I am very interested to know what has happened (or not happened) as a result of that. I doubt we'll find out the full story in any of our lifetimes.

Good post, Doodledog

Of course we shouldn't feel we need to wear a hair shirt and eat gruel if we wish to spend our hard-earned money on an innocent holiday in retirement!

One thing I might dispute, though,
Many people despise what they see as 'weakness' in others, but being 'strong' usually means being willing to hurt others, one way or another, and turning a blind eye when others do it.

Being strong does not always mean being willing to hurt others or turning a blind eye. That implies, to me anyway, a character fault.
Truly strong people will care for and rescue those in need. A truly strong person would have stood up to what was happening with Epstein and brought him to justice. These men are selfish, greedy, sleazy and weak. Not a strong one amongst them.

Gran22boys

What I don’t get is why were photos taken?

Because of their potential for blackmailing the "clients" in high places.

Elegran

Gran22boys

What I don’t get is why were photos taken?

Because of their potential for blackmailing the "clients" in high places.

Gran22boys

The "clients" may not have been aware that there were spy cameras and surveillance equipment everywhere, taking photos and videos of their activities for blackmail purposes.

They weren't being asked to pose for the camera.

We constantly hear about the misdeeds of Andrew MW and Mandelson but this focus on them is helping to hide worse perpetrators.

These men need to be identified and brought to justice. At present they are getting away with it.

I know, Allira. that's why I said 'usually'. It's not always possible to do good things without hurting people though, and a 'strong' person will do them anyway. Of course there are also those who just don't care, and those who enjoy power for its own sake, but being 'strong' is, like so many human traits, a two-edged sword.

Allira

Elegran

Gran22boys

What I don’t get is why were photos taken?

Because of their potential for blackmailing the "clients" in high places.

Gran22boys

The "clients" may not have been aware that there were spy cameras and surveillance equipment everywhere, taking photos and videos of their activities for blackmail purposes.

They weren't being asked to pose for the camera.

Don’t you think? In some of the photos it looks to me as if they know, and aren’t fazed by having their pictures taken. They probably thought they were protected, so didn’t think anything of it at the time.

Doodledog

I know, Allira. that's why I said 'usually'. It's not always possible to do good things without hurting people though, and a 'strong' person will do them anyway. Of course there are also those who just don't care, and those who enjoy power for its own sake, but being 'strong' is, like so many human traits, a two-edged sword.

I suppose it's similar to bullies often being cowards.

Do any of the photo's actually show them doing anything wrong?

"It seems clear that there was a blackmail agenda, hence the numerous photos. I am very interested to know what has happened (or not happened) as a result of that. I doubt we'll find out the full story in any of our lifetimes." Doodledog

The security risks taken by these men were enormous and if, as suggested frequently in the press, Epstein had contacts with Russian and Israeli agents the possibility of blackmail for international espionage purposes should not be dismissed. It's never been clear where Epstein got his vast wealth from, basically who was bankrolling him? I also doubt we will ever know the full truth but there is still a lot more to come out about his activities.

In many cases they were the lawmakers, or influenced those who were.

Laws and rules are just for the 'little people' to keep them under control, not for the extremely wealthy and those in positions of power.

These men need to be identified and brought to justice. At present they are getting away with it.

Yes.

foxie48

"It seems clear that there was a blackmail agenda, hence the numerous photos. I am very interested to know what has happened (or not happened) as a result of that. I doubt we'll find out the full story in any of our lifetimes." Doodledog

The security risks taken by these men were enormous and if, as suggested frequently in the press, Epstein had contacts with Russian and Israeli agents the possibility of blackmail for international espionage purposes should not be dismissed. It's never been clear where Epstein got his vast wealth from, basically who was bankrolling him? I also doubt we will ever know the full truth but there is still a lot more to come out about his activities.

Exactly. And who has had sight of all the 'files', and is deciding what gets released and when?

It's terrifying to think there are people controlling the world like this.

‘Twas always the way . We are just more aware of it I think.

Smileless2012

Do any of the photo's actually show them doing anything wrong?

Presumably any sexually explicit photos have been redacted. The photos show men in a light which could be compromising, it’s a drip feed rather than the full story.

Galaxy

Clinton behaved in a predatory way whilst president, he is not known for being truthful about his sexual behaviour.

He was a complete sleazeball when Governor of Arkansas.
Not just a sexual predator/ abuser but financially corrupt.

Some years ago a male friend was buying his first flat and started moonlighting as a taxi-driver. It turned out that his taxi-service was for very special ' escorts' to and from the hotels where they met their clients; he had to park on the hotel forecourt in full view of the hotel and wait until the escort left. He described these women as being 'lovely'; intelligent, good-looking, friendly, able to talk about anything. One night one woman he was driving home said , you haven't asked the question, and when he asked, what question, she laughed and said, 'why is a nice girl like you doing this.?
He admitted he had thought it, and she said, we do it for the money, which is good, we are well treated, protected, the clients are pleasant and well vetted, and most of us earn money for something specific: school fees, deposit for a house, mortgage, starting a business, coping after a divorce, and we set a term on how long we will do this. Every one is extremely discreet.
So Allira, not all women are groomed; some do it by choice and they regard it as a business.
Under-age girls is something different, and many people forget that Virginia Guiffre first came to the notice of the authorities when her name was quoted by young girls from the Maxwell Epstein stable as the girl who recruited them as school friends.
No-one has ever said how much Epstein's 'harem' was paid; I would imagine it was considerable. I have never heard of anyone who tried to leave who was prevented; the complaints came after he was revealed to be a paedophile and a pimp.

Agree eazybee

A lot of that information is already in the public domain..
www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1180481/dl

AGAA4

We constantly hear about the misdeeds of Andrew MW and Mandelson but this focus on them is helping to hide worse perpetrators.

These men need to be identified and brought to justice. At present they are getting away with it.

This concerns me. I believe the USA establishment is concentrating on our nationals and hiding behind them, using them as a smoke screen.This is not to suggest that they are not involved with this disgusting organisation of modern slavery and child abuse.

The administration in the USA should release the documents IN FULL, with no redactions except for the victims. I doubt this will happen all the time the Republicans (Trump) are in control. Would the Democrats is another question?

Any one involved with this should be extradited and face questions just as any other named person contained within the documents.

I can't believe all the anti women 'blame the victim" posts on here. Even if all the women were 'nice girls" , "in it for the money", no under aged or coerced in anyway ( unlikely), then it would still be demeaning and sleazy for the middle aged men with wealth and power who were involved. I expect you blame women who are raped for "asking for it".

So Allira, not all women are groomed; some do it by choice and they regard it as a business.

Do you think I'm stupid, eazybee?

We are on this thread discussing Epstein and girls, some under-age, many of whom were groomed by Maxwell for the entertainment of rich and powerful men.

An entirely different from adult women making lifestyle choices.
Your story is anecdotal anyway, and there are women and girls in this country too for whom this is not a choice.

CoolCoco

I can't believe all the anti women 'blame the victim" posts on here. Even if all the women were 'nice girls" , "in it for the money", no under aged or coerced in anyway ( unlikely), then it would still be demeaning and sleazy for the middle aged men with wealth and power who were involved. I expect you blame women who are raped for "asking for it".

Shocking, isn't it.

Allira

CoolCoco

I can't believe all the anti women 'blame the victim" posts on here. Even if all the women were 'nice girls" , "in it for the money", no under aged or coerced in anyway ( unlikely), then it would still be demeaning and sleazy for the middle aged men with wealth and power who were involved. I expect you blame women who are raped for "asking for it".

Shocking, isn't it.

Yes, it is shocking

Hard to believe any woman would condone this. I'm glad that most posts I've read are condemning these disgusting men.

They have always said that the president of the USA is one of the most important people in the world - but as Epstein seems to be a curse for all of his associates I think Epstein must be the most powerful person in the world .
I agree that females under the age of consent should have been protected but is 26 year old (at the time) really a victim? it makes women out to be stupid and incapable of looking after themselves