David and Tristan Tate and their “supporters”

Peaseblossom

Cossy what has Farage got to do with anything?

The very fact that you need to ask means you simply haven’t made the connection. Farage, like his buddy Trump, feels a woman’s place is behind a man, at home producing babies, doing the housework and “servicing” their husbands.

undines

I detest the term 'toxic masculinity' - as the mother of four fine sons it makes me angry. Men are demonised, they are not taught how to be 'men', in fact they are practically taught it is wrong to be a man and to do or feel any of the things that come naturally to men - such as fancying women! A young man I know was falsely accused of rape, seized from his family home in front of young niece and nephew, detained in great discomfort for a day, then released with no charge because the girl admitted she just made it up because she was afraid of upsetting someone else and wanted an excuse. There was no come-back on the girl, and this is because if there were to be a 'come back' then women would be afraid to come forward! An incident like this traumatises a young man and can ruin his life because people inevitably say 'There's no smoke without fire.' Algorithms discriminate against the white, heterosexual male. There is no fairness in this, many young men feel stymied and powerless and prefer to stay in front of their computers rather than risk the 'dating scene.' It is in this state of unfairness that psychopaths like the Tates find interest and support. Rather than blame the Tates and go on and on about toxic masculinity and violence against women, we should look at the whole picture. We should be working towards less violence EVERYWHERE, fairness EVERYWHERE, and an understanding, maybe, about what makes men different (are they allowed to be different??) and how their needs and natures can be catered for, rather than demonised.

I am a mother of a son. It doesn’t give me the moral right to minimize this problem. I also raised mine to be a decent human. Too many others didn’t, hence this problem. “Fancying” women does not equal harassment and mistreatment to normal people, so whomever is confused about that is part of the problem. It’s simple: keep your hands to yourself, consent matters at all times, and women aren’t objects or pieces of meat. Women are not property and men aren’t entitled to say and do whatever they want they want to them. Normal men understand this. Normal men “fancy” women and manage to never confuse any of the above.

The amount of women and girls actually raped Vs the amount of men falsely accused is astronomical. No one should shy away from acknowledging and addressing the growing threat of young men and boys being influenced into toxic, predatory treatment of women and girls no matter what.

I am also the mother of a daughters and granddaughters. They do not exist merely for the pleasure of males and they don’t need to coddle or “care for” whatever your concept of a male’s nature is. The fact remains that the vast majority of violence committed in this world is committed by men. If you think the world needs to cow-tow to that, you will stay angry because most young women today won’t allow the clocks to be turned back so far. Good for them!

Im sure most of us have loving, positive relationships with good men in our lives.
I don’t agree that men are demonised, What does “not taught how to be men “ mean? Reading undine’s post reminded me how many rapes and other assaults on women and girls go unreported

So scary

My daughter has full control of her kids phones, the eldest is nearly 15. He's aware that will the case until he's 16, after that there isn't much she can do. But her boys are fully aware of the Tates and the manosphere, they know what they are and that they're not the kind of people to look up to. They also have a good family around them, kids that get sucked into this kind of thing tend to be vulnerable and easily swayed I that way of thinking, more so if they have unemotional fathers or with a derogatory view towards women. Thankfully my sil isn't scared of emotion, he'll cry in front of his kids, he's far from a toxic man.

It's not just having control over what kids do and see online, it's about educating them, telling them it all exists before they find it themselves, it's having parents that don't feed into the narrative, support form other family members.

The majority of males that get sucked into it don't come from supportive families, they don't have good role models and they often tend to feel lost. The manosphere makes them feel special.

I detest the term 'toxic masculinity' - as the mother of four fine sons it makes me angry. Men are demonised, they are not taught how to be 'men', in fact they are practically taught it is wrong to be a man and to do or feel any of the things that come naturally to men - such as fancying women! A young man I know was falsely accused of rape, seized from his family home in front of young niece and nephew, detained in great discomfort for a day, then released with no charge because the girl admitted she just made it up because she was afraid of upsetting someone else and wanted an excuse. There was no come-back on the girl, and this is because if there were to be a 'come back' then women would be afraid to come forward! An incident like this traumatises a young man and can ruin his life because people inevitably say 'There's no smoke without fire.' Algorithms discriminate against the white, heterosexual male. There is no fairness in this, many young men feel stymied and powerless and prefer to stay in front of their computers rather than risk the 'dating scene.' It is in this state of unfairness that psychopaths like the Tates find interest and support. Rather than blame the Tates and go on and on about toxic masculinity and violence against women, we should look at the whole picture. We should be working towards less violence EVERYWHERE, fairness EVERYWHERE, and an understanding, maybe, about what makes men different (are they allowed to be different??) and how their needs and natures can be catered for, rather than demonised.

The Tate Brothers are real sick and toxic. Their hatred of women is breathtaking and other men really look up to them.

The link between the Tate brothers and Mr Trump is yet another disturbing fact about the Potus. I read he wanted to pardon them?

Monica. well said. I agree with you entirely.

Cossy what has Farage got to do with anything?

*solved one problem

keepingquiet

I think most of our young women are prefectly aware of these things and equally give them less credence than we seem to think they do...

I wonder how many of us actaully speak to our GC about these things?

This is completely out of touch and unsupported by reality. These “influencers” have tens of millions of followers and are now becoming politically connected. The Tate brothers have deep ties to the Trump administration and have earned millions by preying on impressionable minds. To downplay the danger is to thinly veil support for them. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtains”. No, we ARE paying attention and more people need to in order to counteract the danger. Willful ignorance never sold one problem on Earth.

Ultimately, the best way for parents to protect their youth from these very popular monsters is to parent their sons properly. The Tates and their ilk thrive because lazy parents let their teens have unfettered, unfiltered internet access and don’t talk enough to their sons and daughters about the dangers of following grifters online. The very concept of being a “follower” is somehow becoming normalized. The last thing this planet can afford is more loud mouth insecure men telling young women where their “place” is, and young men thinking they can control and restrict the freedoms of women. On top of that, nearly all of them are racists as well. These “men” are teaching boys to become predators. Awareness is the weapon against them.

butterandjam

@keepingquiet When I grew up in the 70s it was perfectly acceptable to be groped, kissed and more by men at work and in the local pubs.

It absolutely was not acceptable to me or any women/men I knew.

Pornography was everywhere- in the school playground, the local shop, on the TV and in the cinemas, not least to say in our homes through newspapers,books and magazines.

That's nonsense. The nearest thing to porn in 1970 UK newspapers was Page 3 tits. UK TV certainly never broadcast an erect penis let alone places to put it. Even today TV can't broadcast the kind of porn images kids can see on their mobile phones.

You're completely wrong about the Tates influence in everyday life btw; the evidence in boys behaviour to female staff and girls in class is widely reported by schools.

It wasn’t acceptable but it certainly wasn’t frowned upon as much as it is today. I had breasts before I left primary school and lots of boys groped me there. I also remember a lot of porn, usually just magazines hidden under dad’s beds.

Scary business. These men should be locked up.

I got groped and Tehran Airport in 1960 when I was 16. It was one of the baggage handlers as we were transferring to an airport minicoach. One of the male crew was standing behind me, saw what happened and whispered in my ear ^ if it happens again knee him in the balls^

That apart, despite going to a prodominately male technologicsl northern university and working in a predominantly male environment, I had the occasional grab, or smutty joke or remark, but I realised very early on is that the men doing this sort of thing are looking for a reaction, so I never responded in any way. I developed a blank incomprehending stare, and continued as if nothing had happened or been said. I found it so effective I used it on my children when they misbehaved in public. They called it my Paddington stare, after the bear who gave 'good hard stares'

Eloethan

They are horrible, dangerous men who are negatively influencing boys' views on women. I can see the results in my own grandson. Sometimes I wish the internet had never been invented, even if it meant there was no Gransnet!

butter and jam My memories of the 70's are different from yours. Women didn't have as many opportunities then and nothing much was expected of them but I don't recall the sorts of scenes of groping that you mention. There were "dirty" magazines on the top shelf, topless women in the newspapers, and Miss World but I think the situation is much worse now. It is reported that the pornographic material on the internet is often very demeaning of women and violent. Many women have been influenced to feel so dissatisfied with their appearance now that they have all sorts of invasive procedures to adjust the way they look.

I think you may have been lucky! I was “groped” in the 70’s by both the owner of a shop where I worked and my friends next door neighbour when we were given a lift somewhere and I sat in the front! In both cases I was around 16 years old!

SORES

Cossy! change your heading, there is no David Tate.

The brothers have a younger sister - now that is an
interesting angle is it not?

Sorry, I know there isn’t, I don’t know how to change it???

Esmay

I don't know a great deal about them until a few months ago .
I had to Google to find out that they are ex -kickboxers,ardent misogynists and anti -semitic .and influencing young men in the US .
Their attitudes about women and Jews is horrendous.
I haven't hear such vile diatribe for about thirty plus years.

Exactly my point and just saying “that’s my take and I’m out…” actually shows how very out of touch some people are, I’m not being rude, but actually many many parents and grandparents actually have zero idea about the level of exposure their dear children/grandchildren actually have once they start secondary school.

We ALL think we do, but I know from my School Governor says, when I was heavily involving in running/arranging both safeguarding training and seminars, along side CEOP (Child Exploitation & Online Protection), back in 2008-2015.

I was horrified by what I learned from even then, now there is such concern there are many organisations who run safety online for children, parents and teachers.

We may all be aware and educated and set up parental controls and trackers on our children’s phones etc. but please believe me when I say not all parents are so responsible and our children often visit their friends on their own from around 12 onwards.

It’s also not at all unusual for teenage children to have many “personas”
One for school, another with friends and yet another for parents and grandparents.

Maybe due to being a rather “naughty” teenager myself, telling my dear parents I was somewhere and being somewhere else, going into bars and drinking, off to
parties and gigs, I’m somewhat more suspicious, but this is an entirely different world our dear grandchildren are living and have been brought up in.

I think those of us who worry about online influencers have every cause to do so.

Cossy! change your heading, there is no David Tate.

The brothers have a younger sister - now that is an
interesting angle is it not?

Eloethan is correct to describe the Tates as dangerous men.

Eloethan, I might be wrong but I think butterandjam was quoting and disagreeing with a post from keeping quiet.

They are horrible, dangerous men who are negatively influencing boys' views on women. I can see the results in my own grandson. Sometimes I wish the internet had never been invented, even if it meant there was no Gransnet!

butter and jam My memories of the 70's are different from yours. Women didn't have as many opportunities then and nothing much was expected of them but I don't recall the sorts of scenes of groping that you mention. There were "dirty" magazines on the top shelf, topless women in the newspapers, and Miss World but I think the situation is much worse now. It is reported that the pornographic material on the internet is often very demeaning of women and violent. Many women have been influenced to feel so dissatisfied with their appearance now that they have all sorts of invasive procedures to adjust the way they look.

Esmay 👍🏻

I don't know a great deal about them until a few months ago .
I had to Google to find out that they are ex -kickboxers,ardent misogynists and anti -semitic .and influencing young men in the US .
Their attitudes about women and Jews is horrendous.
I haven't hear such vile diatribe for about thirty plus years.

I don't feel I am minimising the risks to young people so much as minimising the impact that the Tate bros et al have on most of our young people.

Giving them credence and air-time only serves to help their message and not hinder it.

But that's just my take and so I am now out of this discussion.

Yes, we listen to what the DGD want to tell us.