A huge march against the Far Right

PS. My mother's experience wasn't an exception. there have been numerous academic articles describing how poor rural education in England and Wales was.

There have also been studies which show that there was a sharp increase in literacy in the cohort born in the 1940s and beyond. There aren't many of the older generation left now, but it wasn't uncommon to find people who couldn't read/write at all. Like Primrose's father, some were good at the "basics" such as fractions, decimals and handwriting, but had no idea when it came to higher cognitive skills.

No, I didn't mean university. That's why I deliberately wrote "higher education". I'm well aware that many young people went/go into higher education (ie post A level) without going anywhere near a university.

In any case, you've proved my point. The vast majority of young people didn't have the opportunity to be a doctor, lawyer, top civil servant, etc because their parents need them to bring in money and they had never considered that it was their place to go into higher education. Women were stuck in menial jobs.

The decades after WW2 changed all that.

twaddle

I disagree with Primrose53. Undoubtedly, the standard of education for some was good, but the majority had an inadequate education in 1945.

Your father was obviously clever, but if he left school at 14, probably didn't have the opportunity to develop his higher level skills and missed out on the opportunity for higher education, which would have opened many doors. For him, and millions of others, the door to opportunity was forever firmly shut.

My mother was evacuated at the beginning of the war to a rural area in the English/Welsh border. She was 8 or 9 at the time and told me that most of the children in the two room school couldn't read or write properly and couldn't do basic arithmetic. It was expected that they would leave school at 14 and work on a farm or in the home and be able to read the bible. They had no need for anything beyond the basics. The 1944 Education Act changed all that for all children - even the ones who didn't pass the 11+.

Your father was obviously clever, but if he left school at 14, probably didn't have the opportunity to develop his higher level skills and missed out on the opportunity for higher education

Higher education, if you mean university, was for the privileged few and that was the case even in the early 1960s too.

However, technical schools were popular, people could gain good qualifications and thereby a good job, often carrying on with education at evening classes and day release.
The Armed Forces, eg National Service, provided good education for many, who went on to gain employment, many becoming the managers of the future.

I think your mother's experience may have been an exception.

working men's clubs and their ilk were fairly bawdy.

Do you have a lot of experience of working mens' clubs? I didn't know they were bawdy.
Do enlighten us!

Started with the aim of education and recreation, I thought.

twaddle

I disagree with Primrose53. Undoubtedly, the standard of education for some was good, but the majority had an inadequate education in 1945.

Your father was obviously clever, but if he left school at 14, probably didn't have the opportunity to develop his higher level skills and missed out on the opportunity for higher education, which would have opened many doors. For him, and millions of others, the door to opportunity was forever firmly shut.

My mother was evacuated at the beginning of the war to a rural area in the English/Welsh border. She was 8 or 9 at the time and told me that most of the children in the two room school couldn't read or write properly and couldn't do basic arithmetic. It was expected that they would leave school at 14 and work on a farm or in the home and be able to read the bible. They had no need for anything beyond the basics. The 1944 Education Act changed all that for all children - even the ones who didn't pass the 11+.

Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. My Dad would have left school approx 1935.

I think there have always been people who like what could, I suppose, be called populist culture. Music halls, working men's clubs and their ilk were fairly bawdy.

One thing I think has changed for the worst in the last 50 years is how dumbed down society has become. People like Katie Price have become famous merely by appearing on banal reality shows and has no discernible talent. 50 years ago, a celebrity was a sports personality,, actor, musician, comedian or a writer, someone with real talent. Now go on some rubbish like Big Brother and you're a celebrity and can become quite wealthy.

When Penstone was a boy, the school leaving age was still 14. He has spoken of his young life, working long hours for the Gestetner factory in Tottenham.

I know the area well. They made duplicating machines and employed thousands of people. They switched to armaments in WW2.

By that time Penstone's father, who was badly injured in WW1, must have been very poorly. He died in 1939 age 44, the same year Penstone turned 14 and left school.

When he was 17, he decided he wanted to join the Merchant Navy but ended up joining the Royal Navy for “hostilities only”, that is, for the duration of the war.

My late father-in-law was a contemporary of his, same age, lived a few streets away, also served in the Royal Navy in the Pacific on an aircraft carrier. It’s very possible they knew one another.

Penstone has shared his WW2 scrapbook with online veteran sites. I possess what looks like a very similar scrapbook which belonged to my late FiL with similar personal and some identical stock photographs of planes crashed on decks and the Japanese surrender.

What struck me was Penstone talking about his post-war life, getting married, setting up his own electrical business, acquiring and renting out domestic appliances, a business he said was affected badly by the Suez Crisis of 1956.

And it occurs to me that some things don’t change. Here was are, 70 years later, in the mist of another fuel crisis because world leaders are still fighting over land, oil and right of passage in the Middle East.

We don’t know what he meant by his comments on GMB as Garraway didn’t allow him to elaborate. We only know of his loathing for Putin and the war on Ukraine.

I disagree with Primrose53. Undoubtedly, the standard of education for some was good, but the majority had an inadequate education in 1945.

Your father was obviously clever, but if he left school at 14, probably didn't have the opportunity to develop his higher level skills and missed out on the opportunity for higher education, which would have opened many doors. For him, and millions of others, the door to opportunity was forever firmly shut.

My mother was evacuated at the beginning of the war to a rural area in the English/Welsh border. She was 8 or 9 at the time and told me that most of the children in the two room school couldn't read or write properly and couldn't do basic arithmetic. It was expected that they would leave school at 14 and work on a farm or in the home and be able to read the bible. They had no need for anything beyond the basics. The 1944 Education Act changed all that for all children - even the ones who didn't pass the 11+.

I believe the standard of education was better though. My father left school at 14. When I was at grammar school he used to help me with decimals and fractions which he learned at school. He had beautiful handwriting as did my Mum who left school at 15. They were excellent at spelling, general knowledge and practical skills.

I worked with older people for 16 years and I found most of them were of similar ability.

Another issue which hasn't been mentioned is that at the end of WW2, the majority of children in the UK received nothing more advanced than an elementary school education. They were trained to go into local industries or, in the case of females, to manage a home or do menial work. The parents of children who could have benefited from a grammar school education and/or higher education couldn't afford to send them. The 1944 Education Act opened up opportunities for millions of children.

In the 80+ years since the end of WW2, I believe there have been some mistakes but, on balance, life for most people is better than it was in 1945. I guess it depends on the definition of "better". My definition is most definitely not the same as some other people's.

Lemonjam: "What was your perception of Penstone's words specifically Menadrogog as you claim 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant' but you have not yet explained what his words specifically meant to you."

I suspect no explanation is forthcoming, so it's pure guesswork what the words meant to Penstone himself and the people who claim to know and agree with him. How can they endorse his views when it's not clear what exactly he meant?

There have been huge advances in health care in the last 50 years. My uncle was diagnosed with lukeamia in 1976 and died 6 months later as the limited treatments that were available were unable to save him, and the local hospital, to put it politely, was a dump. It was made worse that he was only 30 and had two small children.
These days, most likely he would have lived and while the treatment would probably be unpleasant at times, he would have been able to return to a relatively normal life after several months. Also the hospital that would be treating him would have state of the art equipment and far more privacy.

Meandrogrog Fri 03-Apr-26 21:27:49: "Ilovecheese
It doesn't seem to be at all clear what he meant. People seem to be putting their own interpretations on the meaning".

Meandrogog: 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant'.

What is incredibly clear to you Meandrogog? Alec Penstone said nothing about Clapham riots as you exampled.

Google the more moderate article "A British WW11 Veteran's Uncomfortable Question" on miltary.com.

Penstone actually said " I can see in my mind's eye those rows and rows of white stones and all the hundreds of my friends who gave their lives. For what? The country of today? No, I'm sorry, but the sacrifice wasn't worth the result that it is now". Penstone added that what they fought for was freedom and yet now "it's darn sight worse than what I fought for".

WW11 was the war against the rise of the far right nationalism of Adolph Hitler. Hitler was motivated by a fanatical interconnected set of ideological beliefs primarily rooted in extreme racial ideology, desire for territorial expansion and virulent anti semitism. Penstone was fighting to overcome that far right ideology becoming a reality.

Penstone's remarks and question triggered a wave of reaction across the UK as viewers and commentators grappled what his words reveal about veteran sympathy, national identity and collective memory. The DM, GB News and Telegraph et all of course formed views based on their right? far right wing reporting bias, hence why I suggested reading a more moderate, none political article. Gransnet posters will interpret Penstone's words; some may seek to be impartial and some may more easily jump into interpretations shaped by their political bias. However it cant be argued factually what Penstone was fighting for- freedom from far right wing ideology, nationalism, fascism and anti semitism.

What was your perception of Penstone's words specifically Menadrogog as you claim 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant' but you have not yet explained what his words specifically meant to you.

Who has been unkind about the veteran because I don't see it at all?

To me life does seem better in the past. Simpler, mapped out, safer.

Wyllow3

Disagreeing is not sneering. Many, many people experienced WW2 in different ways, on the home front as well as soldiers. Many of our mums and dads went through it. My mum was stranded in France as an au pair girl at aged 17 and suffered under the enemy: alone at 17.
Dad was a veteran too.

What they concluded, after the war, was to change the way things were! Pro the NHS, pro the other changes wrought. They are not alive now, but I have no doubt at all they would not say things were worse - post Hitler and Mussolini, post the appalling holocaust, post the levels of poverty people.
tolerated.

so although this veteran of course had every right to his opinion, to use it as an example of what "everyone thinks" just doesn't pan out. Others deserve respect too.

I completely agree. Disagreeing doesn’t mean dismissing someone’s experience. It’s important to acknowledge how different people lived through the war, whether on the front lines or back home. Your parents’ perspective really highlights that. They witnessed the horrors, but they also embraced the change that came after, like the NHS and other reforms. It’s vital to respect that everyone’s experience is unique, and generalizing someone’s viewpoint doesn’t do justice to the complexity of history

My parents died in their 60's but they would be absolutely thrilled to see how their children and grandchildren live now. Our lives are so much richer in so many ways and I don't think, for one minute, they would begrudge us. However,I think there are groups of people who have been left behind and that's why we need a fairer society with a fairer distribution of this countries wealth, and yes, we are still a very wealthy country but there's too much of our wealth in the pockets of too few people. There's also groups of people who are worried that they will have to contribute some of their money to help the less well off, they have some cause for complaint but why they think someone like Farage/Reform or even worse Lowe/Restore will give give them a better life is totally beyond me. Reform is getting money from foreign sources eg Russia, Christopher Hawthorne in Thailand, why on earth would these people fund a British political party? To help Britain? I don't think so.

Wyllow3

Yes, we are struggling: but to say it was all better when for instance there was no free health care at all and many other things, like proper palliative care and the medications we have now....

It doesnt work for me. Its rose tinted. Look, I understand that many elderly people long for the past, when in some ways life were simpler there was more "community" there was also horrific domestic violence and rape in marriage, unwed mothers were sometimes shoved into MH asylums....

Yes there was. The NHS was introduced post WW2.
A GP would come to the house. Now you can rarely get to see one, it's a nurse instead.

No, it wasn't all wonderful, I remember my father scoffing when the then PM said "Most of our people have never had it so good".
But there were vast improvements with infrastructure, improvements and more opportunities for young people too.

There will always be the seedy and criminal side of life, whatever era we live in, I'm afraid.

Well, if posters wish to criticise a blind WW2 veteran, carry on.
I'm out.

I recall as a child walking past an elderly "home" and many of the people in there were in their early 60's.

Better? I dont think so.

Not to mention the three-day week, constant strikes and the fear of being bombed by the IRA. Oh yes, they were the good times alright!

David49

It was our generation that watched our parents drag the UK out of the chaos of WW2 we knew how hard they worked in appalling conditions. We know how tough our childhood was, toys if you were lucky, an inside loo and bathroom if you were lucky, holidays a week in Skegness if you were lucky.

In comparison today the vast majority have so much, yet nobody is satisfied and wants more because they have a right to it whether they work for it, or show any responsibility at all. So you must forgive us all for thinking that the UK could work a lot harder to help ourselves

Yes people might go on about how bad things are now and I even heard one person say they were better off in the seventies. Really, in that case they would not have the internet, satellite television, a mobile phone, microwave oven ir a DVD player. Quite possibly, if they were poorer, no car, no washing machine ot a landline phone. Also central heating wasn't very widespread and millions of homes still had coal fires.
No thanks, I'd rather not go back to those days.

My experience of family and friends is that we respected, loved our parents and we love, like and admire our adult children. No one I know admires Trump, all a bit anxious about his war and general malign influence
We aren’t daft enough to yearn for the never existed peaceful perfect world we grew up in

My first thought on reading your post David49, was that if our parents worked so hard, made life better, and things have got worse since then, that is down to our generation, isn’t it. We are the parents and grandparents now, and should be accepting responsibility for how things are now, not longing for the past or blaming our children.

It was our generation that watched our parents drag the UK out of the chaos of WW2 we knew how hard they worked in appalling conditions. We know how tough our childhood was, toys if you were lucky, an inside loo and bathroom if you were lucky, holidays a week in Skegness if you were lucky.

In comparison today the vast majority have so much, yet nobody is satisfied and wants more because they have a right to it whether they work for it, or show any responsibility at all. So you must forgive us all for thinking that the UK could work a lot harder to help ourselves

*Meandrogrog

Wyllow3
Yes, we are struggling: but to say it was all better when for instance there was no free health care at all and many other things, like proper palliative care and the medications we have now....

It doesnt work for me. Its rose tinted. Look, I understand that many elderly people long for the past, when in some ways life were simpler there was more "community" there was also horrific domestic violence and rape in marriage, unwed mothers were sometimes shoved into MH asylums....
I think you are seeing a ‘rose tinted’ future for the UK.*

We’ve had this debate so many times.

Appreciating what we have now, and looking forward with hope to a better future, is not “wearing rose tinted spectacles”.

It’s the hope that those things which are wrong with both our country and our world can made more manageable with people being more tolerant, better education and all people being able to live independently financing themselves through decent jobs.

Without hope, we have nothing.