Are White British Men somehow “disadvantaged”

Chocolatelovinggran

Macaydia, I, like you, am concerned about the phrase " women taking men's jobs". I have no experience of the Metropolitan Police, so cannot comment on the previous posting.
However, I do have knowledge of other workplaces, and have seen only successful appointments reflecting the best candidate.
As I have stated elsewhere, my DIL is an engineer, leading her department in an international firm. She has been consulted by a prestigious university on course content. If she did " take a man's job" it's because she was better than him, unpalatable though that might be to some .
Oh, and the percentage of female headteachers to male headteachers has gone down over the last twenty years. Maybe men are stealing women's jobs, here.

The male:female headteacher ratio does not reflect the gender proportions of the classroom teachers they lead, especially in primary.

Cossy

Padstow A big huge thank you, as your post really made laugh out loud! I love your choice of words and have to agree wholeheartedly with your rhetoric.

Yes I must second that 👏🏽👏🏽

Galaxy I read your first post and agree with it BUT this could apply to ANY man. This post was questioning whether White British Men are disadvantaged and I’m yet to see strong evidence, other than one link to a 6 week intern role, that they are disadvantaged in any way, nor than they have have been deprived of job roles by women.

I started this post in direct response to a post on another thread by one of our male members.

Sago

So this was in last week’s news; www.linkedin.com/posts/elliot-hammer-37522920_middle-class-white-men-banned-from-public-activity-7469009904591155200-oyye

This is wrong, I believe strongly in meritocracy, it should always be the best person for the job.

Cossy I am amazed you know the voting habits of your friendship group, do you have to fill in an application to join?

Only my husband and children know how I vote.

I suppose this must be their specific Diversity Summer Internship?

It is not actually a job Sago. It allows them to be both "tested" and "try it out" over a period of six weeks and prove themselves (or discover this isn't for them).
If they are good enough they can then join the Graduate Training Scheme- which is open to all graduates.

There are lots of ways to get into the National Audit Office.
This particular scheme is a standalone initiative.

The NAO runs a Trainee Accountancy Scheme and also has general graduate intakes (as above).

These jobs and apprenticeship schemes obviously don't carry demographic restrictions and are open to all who meet their standard academic benchmarks.

This one scheme is essentially work experience targeted at groups that are under-represented in accounting and public sector auditing.

This is how I understand it.
Hope that makes sense.
I can't read the article as don't have a subscription. Sorry.

I can't answer some of those questions mostly because I loathe identity politics , the separation of people by a specific characteristic is one of the most divisive things I have ever seen. The issue is complex, and these strategies tend not to work.
So I could if I had the energy go through each characteristic - so for example Chinese students outperform white students in education. I suppose I think most of these 'solutions' are simplistic answers to complex issues.

Just realised this is what Cossy said.
I went away whilst typing.
Apologies

Galaxy I totally agree with you BUT (again) as a woman I felt I simply couldn’t let the comments of our normally lovely male member pass without questioning his comments.

I’m quite sad not to see him on here explaining his comments and giving us some answers and insights.

Personally, I think it’s utterly outrageous to state WBM are somehow disadvantaged and women have stolen their jobs! 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

I didn't see that thread, sounds like a bit of a wind up, I think David admits he likes to challenge ( polite way of putting it) I just think the subject is interesting.

Sitting in GP surgery May resume this topic later 🙂🙂

Rosie51

So Wyllow would you be happy to wait longer to see a doctor/clinician because your area didn't have the correct 'ethnic' representation?You don't actually want the best candidate for any position appointed you want strict ratios? So if, for example, BAME candidates field stronger for a position than their white counterparts you want some disadvantaged to keep the ratios correct? Wow, I just want the best in every position. If I need surgery I don't want my surgeon selected by race, religion, birth country or skin colour, I want him/her selected on ability alone, but you do you and take your chances....
Just as you don't seem aware I dont want a wholly white male police force actually. Its great to see more women police out on the. streets at night, and they are often so capable. not all the female officers are black, and what do you do if there just aren't the applications to join from non white, non males? Just lower the entry qualifications, accept anyone from the under represented groups, employ 'press gang' tactics? I quite fancy being a surgeon, absolutely zero normal qualification but I am female, have mixed heritage if you go back far enough, and am enthusiastic, fancy me doing surgery on you or yours?

erm...

I was just talking about the police in that, in reference to particular examples of a black policewoman getting training ahead of a white male who had to wait a bit longer

and I stated clearly "as long as there were both up to the job" meaning qualified of course..

Well one area where British white males are not at all disadvantaged is as leader of the Labour party. That's all there has ever been, and the present white male leader will be ousted in favour of yet another white male leader if Andy Burnham gets his way. I am not in favour of fixed quotas, but you'd think there might be some deviance from white male leaders along the line. The Conservative party have managed it on several occasions, the current one being a black woman.

Wyllow3 ^a bit longer* in that case was over a year and still counting. The Met weren't comparing one candidate with another they were accelerating admission over a whole queue of candidates based purely on sex and skin colour.

I'd love a female Labour Party leader. I regard choosing the right leader at any given time is rather different from recruitment at ground level in the police force.

Well, we'll have to disagree: we really, really need a balanced police force, Rosie. However, the metropolitan police have never stopped recruiting while males I have just done a check:

"No, the Metropolitan Police has never legally stopped recruiting white males, nor has it ever implemented a strict ban on them. However, the force has utilized targeted "positive action" strategies and aggressive recruitment targets to dramatically increase the number of female and ethnic minority officers in its ranks".

Are you accusing those recruited under the scheme are not up to the job

Or it this another moan re white males about not getting "first dabs" as has been forever before?

Wyllow3 Are you accusing those recruited under the scheme are not up to the job of course not and I'll thank you not to suggest I am!
All candidates on the waiting for training list were up to the job they had all passed the criteria, fitness tests and interview.

As to Or it this another moan re white males about not getting "first dabs" as has been forever before? There really is no need to be so offensive, I have never expressed such a view, and don't hold it either.

Hope it goes OK Cossy.

Oreo

I do wonder if boys would respond better to an all boys school from aged 11 with lots of male teachers and plenty of sports?

I’m sure they would. Unfortunately, too many parents are suspicious of male teachers, just look at MN.

I just feel that this thread is not about education at all, though of course it’s an interesting topic.

It’s simply about the misnomer, in my opinion, that White British Males in the UK are “somehow” disadvantage which is very different from being disenchanted and disenfranchised.

Personally, and this doesn’t make me right, it’s just my view, I just don’t believe it and I’d go further to say that this has been politicised by some right parties and that some White British Men are more than happy to go along with, rather than perhaps looking at other reason, or even, heaven forbid, themselves to discover what’s gone wrong for them!

The police do not use positive discrimination in their recruitment process, as hiring someone purely based on their background rather than merit is unlawful. Instead, forces use lawful Positive Action under the Equality Act 2010, which helps under-represented groups compete on a level playing field. AI generated,

Can we please put this idea to rest, positive discrimination is illegal in the UK. In the early 90's I used to train senior managers in recruitment and training and boy did they need the training! The 2010 Equality Act consolidated the preceding equality laws and gives EVERYONE protection against discrimination, that includes white men. This idea that Equality Laws give some people an advantage is absolute rubbish, they help to protect us all against unfair discrimination.

Well Reform definitely "target" a certain demographic , my DH received at least 3/4 personally addressed leaflets during our recent election, I received only 1. Schooling has always favoured the sit and look interested brigade, if you have a problem and keep asking questions you were always made to feel stupid and overlooked especially if you sat at the back out of the way of the sarcastic comments of the teacher. I wasn't brilliant in school but could hold my own in the core subjects. When it came to career choices it was a local factory for the girls and an apprenticeship if you are lucky for the boys or as one teacher told a boy I was in school with " you will end up cleaning the toilets" That teacher was the sarcastic one. I am not sure how we go forward and make boys feel valued , where do those loving little boys who run around the playground go once they hit puberty.

Yes, the drive to recruit the Police I allluded to were indeed under that scheme and in this context I think a very good one.

Its so very important that people needing help in all kinds of ways have an opportunity to feel really heard and helped and its genuinely not within the capacity of many young white males to relate to a woman who has suffered certain kinds of problems.

And women have so much to give too... I frequently watch those late night reality TV police or ambulance 999 programmes, and what comes across is the way some women can far better control aggressive male: that when controlling women touch may be involved, and it is therefore helpful. sometimes people are more willing to talk with a woman than a man, and vice versa: it just makes total sense to me.

:that when a crime happens within a particular community, be it Brixton or Barnsley, having people from a variety of race backgrounds is the only way we can build cooperation with various communities.

(I was responding to foxie)

The problem is organisations frequently have a poor understanding of the equality act as we have seen before.

Galaxy

The problem is organisations frequently have a poor understanding of the equality act as we have seen before.

Indeed we have. It's really quite depressing isn't it?

Sago

So this was in last week’s news; www.linkedin.com/posts/elliot-hammer-37522920_middle-class-white-men-banned-from-public-activity-7469009904591155200-oyye

This is wrong, I believe strongly in meritocracy, it should always be the best person for the job.

Cossy I am amazed you know the voting habits of your friendship group, do you have to fill in an application to join?

Only my husband and children know how I vote.

Taken directly form the National Audit Office website:

"FAQs- Internship Scheme
- Our eight-week summer internship programme offers places to 12-16 undergraduates from an ethnic minority or lower socioeconomic background who are about to enter their final year at university. Interns gain valuable insights and experience into the unique work of the NAO and the opportunity to strengthen their professional network. At the end of the programme all interns can undertake the graduate assessment centre and if successful will be offered a place on our graduate scheme.

Who we are looking for 
-Successful candidates join us from a diverse range of backgrounds and there is no such thing as a typical NAO graduate trainee. We value the unique perspective, insight, talent and contribution each individual brings."

It is not a job on offer from which WBM are excluded therefore. It is an 8 week summer internship opportunity to encourage future assessment applications from less advantaged applicants in an effort to make the graduate training scheme more diverse. WBM are not excluded from the "graduate scheme job" and all applicants at job stage are appointed on merit.

Politcal/ Journalistic spin?

But the equality law advisor commenting on the article is mentioning how there is possible risk of discrimination linked to payment for interns etc. .