From sinner to saint, quite a transformation.

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

Yes, Tuliptree, of course he was sneering at her background, too.
Whatever he may have done since, I will always think of him as a thoroughly unpleasant man - who I dare say has found effective ways of portraying himself. In a different light.

I'm sure sinners can mend their ways and atone for their sins.

I also believe it's quite a normal reaction to be cynical.

Increasingly, I find myself defending politicians I would never in a thousand years have voted for... that comment about Margaret Thatcher was about as spiteful as spiteful can be. And quite possibly incorrect.

As a Christian I believe that no-one is beyond redemption. Jesus died on the Cross and rose again to pay the price for all sin, past, present and future.
The prerequisite for that forgiveness is genuine repentance and turning ones life over to the Lordship of Christ.
In the Bible the word 'saint' refers to a believer not a degree of goodness
Paul had a genuine conversion on the road to Damascus and lived a transformed life but it took him years to be accepted by the disciples and others because of the atrocities he had committed in his pre-coversion days.
Only God knows the true state of our hearts and I'm so glad it's not my job to try and sort it out.

Yes I believe you can go from sinner, through learning and reflection to remorse, reformed behaviour, apology and recompense.

No one is perfect or a saint.

As I do not live in the UK I have no idea at all about the person spoken of in the original post.

But yes, peoplle can change, if they want to, and if they realise that their former w ay of life has been wrong in any way.

Most of us never make the attempt, believing that we do not need to.

Those who feel the need to change, may be able to do so, if they have the requisite strength of character, and if at least one other person genuinily supports them in their choice and their efforts to change.

Some suceed, others as changing yourself is hard work, do not.

If we look at saints in the religious sense, St Francis of Assisi was the kind of young man no parent could be proud of, but a sudden change of heart occured in him, and he suceeded in transforming himself from what today we would call a jet-setter to a person devoted to living as humbly and cheaply as possible in order to help others.

Igatius of Loyola went from being a soldier who did not concern himself over much with thoughts of God, or his own soul, to become a devout founder of a new order of priests - the Society of Jesus.

Women too, have left a life of wealth and comfort, St. Claire of Assisi being one of them to serve God and her fellow humans in poverty.

So, yes sinners can become saints.

Essexgirl145

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

It’s not just like that!

It requires more effort.

Only Tommy Cooper used that phrase.

Saul of Tarsus who repented and became Paul after his enlightenment on the Road to Damascus. I guess anyone can repent and reform if they are genuine. John Profumo turned to goodly works after his release from prison.

Mr Aitken was my MP at the time, and on the rare occasion when our paths crossed, he seemed entitled and arrogant to me.
Years later, after his time in prison, he spoke to a local literary group.
My impression was that the man had not changed in his presentation.
However, he did speak about his experiences as a prison chaplain, so his life certainly is very different, now, and perhaps reflects an inner change.

AuntieE

As I do not live in the UK I have no idea at all about the person spoken of in the original post.

But yes, peoplle can change, if they want to, and if they realise that their former w ay of life has been wrong in any way.

Most of us never make the attempt, believing that we do not need to.

Those who feel the need to change, may be able to do so, if they have the requisite strength of character, and if at least one other person genuinily supports them in their choice and their efforts to change.

Some suceed, others as changing yourself is hard work, do not.

If we look at saints in the religious sense, St Francis of Assisi was the kind of young man no parent could be proud of, but a sudden change of heart occured in him, and he suceeded in transforming himself from what today we would call a jet-setter to a person devoted to living as humbly and cheaply as possible in order to help others.

Igatius of Loyola went from being a soldier who did not concern himself over much with thoughts of God, or his own soul, to become a devout founder of a new order of priests - the Society of Jesus.

Women too, have left a life of wealth and comfort, St. Claire of Assisi being one of them to serve God and her fellow humans in poverty.

So, yes sinners can become saints.

Yes Ignatius Loyola was a vain, womanising soldier.

A serious injury led to his incarceration, it took a lot of surgery and many months to recover.

During this period he found Christ.

It’s interesting how adversity and time often lead us to God.

He believed to be a true soldier of God you should have no vanity.

He left a great legacy to this world, one that so many millions of people have benefited from through the Jesuits.

Perhaps Aitken was inspired by this story.

As Oscar Wilde said “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” Wise words.

Essexgirl145

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

Well if you believe in a “god”, that’s exactly why he forgives those who truly repent and try to live better lives, because his followers pray to him for forgiveness.

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Luckygirl3

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Her great legacy to sell off all our council housing and not replace it.

The result a load of dodgy landlords and substandard accommodation.

Sago

Luckygirl3

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Her great legacy to sell off all our council housing and not replace it.

The result a load of dodgy landlords and substandard accommodation.

Successive governments also did sod all.
IIRC the Labour govt. had 13 years in which to repeal or amend that law, but they didn’t.
Could that possibly be because they thought it would lose them votes?

As a Christian I am very glad that the judging of people and their level of repentance is not in my remit. I leave that up to Him and try to concern myself with my own life.

Selling off council housing stock was the least of what she did, though bad enough .... destroying industries and communities, peddling inappropriate "grocer's daughter" economics, rejecting co-operation and caring in favour of individualism, espousing the idea that profit is everything and basing every policy on this, selling off our service industries and privatising everything in sight (even social care for goodness' sake), fragmenting our society in a way that I do not think will ever mend .... can she be forgiven? Absolutely not.

If you lived ina council house and had paid rent for years, if someone came along and offered you to buy it at a fraction of the market price, you’d jump at it if you could. Having said that you may well have more than paid for that house already in rent. It gave you the right to buy your own home and not have to face the Council being able to move you out as circumstances changed. Now everyone wants to own their own house and the cry is for affordable housing, but the problem is wages have not kept pace with housing costs so the differential is that much bigger.

25Avalon

If you lived ina council house and had paid rent for years, if someone came along and offered you to buy it at a fraction of the market price, you’d jump at it if you could. Having said that you may well have more than paid for that house already in rent. It gave you the right to buy your own home and not have to face the Council being able to move you out as circumstances changed. Now everyone wants to own their own house and the cry is for affordable housing, but the problem is wages have not kept pace with housing costs so the differential is that much bigger.

I wouldn't blame anyone for opting to buy their council house if given the chance.
... but Councils were blocked from replacing the homes they sold - government would not allow them to use the receipts to build new housing, with the inevitable result that there was less housing for rent - and people still needed to rent.
And then, there were borrowing limits placed on Councils, too.
So there were winners, but definitely losers.
But of course, not many people bought properties in those ugly concrete tower blocks I don't think. They became sink estates for the have-nots.

It may be true that I might have bought a cheap house if I'd been offered one, but that wouldn't make it a sensible policy. It was done to buy votes. At one time a third of the population lived in council houses, with affordable rents and the threat of eviction if people were a public nuisance.

Now the number of people able to live in securely tenanted houses is tiny, and they are no longer owned by councils, but housing associations who tend not to care if tenants make life difficult for their neighbours.

Yes, some tenants had paid a lot of rent, but in the time they did they had a secure roof over their heads and regular repairs. If they could afford to buy a house they should, IMO, have bought one on the open market like others did. Taking a house out of public ownership was wrong.

I don't blame individuals for doing it, although I do blame those who bought their parents' houses at huge discounts, and even more so if they then rented them to tenants who would once have qualified for the same house on a social rent. Someone on a tight budget who is suddenly offered the chance to own something they could never have been able to buy at full price would have to be fairly sainted to turn it down, but I do blame Thatcher for the policy. It was a blatant appeal to greed and self-interest - values which permeated her policies and time in office. See also the sale of public utilities.

The policy didn't benefit all the takers, though. I know someone who bought her council house at full discount, but even so couldn't afford to pay for the repairs that her neighbours got free, as she suddenly had a mortgage that was subject to changes in interest rates, and her circumstances changed for the worse. I remember when the people around her all got new kitchens, and hers was tatty and broken. She lived in fear of being unable to pay the mortgage and being evicted, which wouldn't have happened if she'd stayed a tenant, as benefits would have picked up the tab. The whole shebang was a cynical attempt to buy votes, and it worked.

I would struggle to forgive Thatcher, but largely because I don't think she seemed capable of the sort of reflection that would show her what she had done to people and regret it. The fourth generation of unemployed who would once have had a steady job in a traditional industry. The people who turned to drugs as a result of having no hope of a decent life because she ruthlessly closed whole industries. The miners who were criminalised for driving to a different area during the 1984 strike, or who were picked off picket lines and falsely accused of violence, so never worked again. The older ones (ie over 40) who never worked again anyway, and their wives and families whose lives were ruined.

But on the whole I do believe that those who regret what they've done and decide to do better are able to do so. Surely most of us have done things we have come to regret and wish we'd done differently. Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future, as they say.

Doodledog

Someone on a tight budget who is suddenly offered the chance to own something they could never have been able to buy at full price would have to be fairly sainted to turn it down

I think so too.

I've always believed that Thatcher, as a fierce proponent of the Austrian School of Economics, faced a major problem - how to get the typical working-class, especially the 'blue-collar' workers - on board with her ideology.

She did this, IMO, by breaking the cohesion of the working class and killing off the power of the unions - in all the ways you've outlined.

We were alleged to be held to ransom, as a country - by the unions. Now we're held to ransom by the Corporate world, venture capitalists, foreign ownership of our utilities.

Doodledog

It may be true that I might have bought a cheap house if I'd been offered one, but that wouldn't make it a sensible policy. It was done to buy votes. At one time a third of the population lived in council houses, with affordable rents and the threat of eviction if people were a public nuisance.

Now the number of people able to live in securely tenanted houses is tiny, and they are no longer owned by councils, but housing associations who tend not to care if tenants make life difficult for their neighbours.

Yes, some tenants had paid a lot of rent, but in the time they did they had a secure roof over their heads and regular repairs. If they could afford to buy a house they should, IMO, have bought one on the open market like others did. Taking a house out of public ownership was wrong.

I don't blame individuals for doing it, although I do blame those who bought their parents' houses at huge discounts, and even more so if they then rented them to tenants who would once have qualified for the same house on a social rent. Someone on a tight budget who is suddenly offered the chance to own something they could never have been able to buy at full price would have to be fairly sainted to turn it down, but I do blame Thatcher for the policy. It was a blatant appeal to greed and self-interest - values which permeated her policies and time in office. See also the sale of public utilities.

The policy didn't benefit all the takers, though. I know someone who bought her council house at full discount, but even so couldn't afford to pay for the repairs that her neighbours got free, as she suddenly had a mortgage that was subject to changes in interest rates, and her circumstances changed for the worse. I remember when the people around her all got new kitchens, and hers was tatty and broken. She lived in fear of being unable to pay the mortgage and being evicted, which wouldn't have happened if she'd stayed a tenant, as benefits would have picked up the tab. The whole shebang was a cynical attempt to buy votes, and it worked.

I would struggle to forgive Thatcher, but largely because I don't think she seemed capable of the sort of reflection that would show her what she had done to people and regret it. The fourth generation of unemployed who would once have had a steady job in a traditional industry. The people who turned to drugs as a result of having no hope of a decent life because she ruthlessly closed whole industries. The miners who were criminalised for driving to a different area during the 1984 strike, or who were picked off picket lines and falsely accused of violence, so never worked again. The older ones (ie over 40) who never worked again anyway, and their wives and families whose lives were ruined.

But on the whole I do believe that those who regret what they've done and decide to do better are able to do so. Surely most of us have done things we have come to regret and wish we'd done differently. Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future, as they say.

I'm with you on all that.

The policy that said everyone should own their own home left those who would never stand a chance of getting together a deposit at the mercy of private landlords. The loss of secure council housing has left many at the mercy of private landlords.

She did this, IMO, by breaking the cohesion of the working class and killing off the power of the unions - in all the ways you've outlined.

Destroying communities has had a negative knock on effect.

We were alleged to be held to ransom, as a country - by the unions. Now we're held to ransom by the Corporate world, venture capitalists, foreign ownership of our utilities.

And by the media.

Some interesting points especially from Doodledog as usual. If we go back in history to post Second World War, there was a shortage of housing and a shortage of jobs, so it was a no brainer to give men work and give people housing by building council houses. When my dad was demobbed the government paid for him to go on a bricklaying course. He then helped build our council house, which my parents bought all of those years later. A lot of relatively well off people initially lived in the council houses in our village until private housing became available to purchase locally. There was no shame in living in a council house then.

I believe people can truly repent in their hearts - not in the religious sense - although of course I accept that is another way to see it. I don't expect saints.

But not at all sure Mr Aitken has. I just don't know enough about him but the evidence of his lifestyle makes me wonder if he truly has.

The 12 steps on the Alcoholics Anonymous has a lot to teach here? the full acceptance and making amends?

Now forgiveness, thats another matter.