I completely agree Monica.
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Life Dramas
(54 Posts)I recently found out about the Karpman Drama Triangle - a set of behaviours or roles i recognise in my life - i've been in all the roles at different times. i am seeing that this Drama Triangle offers a way to understand and break away from a pattern which just leads to unhappiness.
See what you think:
The Karpman Drama Triangle
The Drama Triangle describes a pattern we can all get into in difficult relationships. There are three roles, and we can move from one to another surprisingly quickly.
The Victim
Feels hard done by, powerless or picked on. There can be a “Why does everything always happen to me?” attitude. They may be passive-aggressive rather than openly saying what they want or need.
The Rescuer
Jumps in to help, fix or do things for someone that they could — and perhaps should — do for themselves. They may then feel hurt, resentful or angry when their help isn’t wanted or appreciated.
The Persecutor
Blames, criticizes, attacks, intimidates or puts someone down. They can be genuinely nasty — making the other person feel small, guilty or at fault.
And the interesting bit is that we don’t necessarily stay in one role. Someone can start as the Rescuer, become the Victim when their help isn’t appreciated, and then turn into the Persecutor: “After everything I’ve done for you…”
A simple example
A mother keeps doing things for her adult daughter — making appointments, sorting out problems, giving advice, even when the daughter hasn’t asked her to.
The mother is the Rescuer: “I’m only trying to help.”
The daughter gets fed up and says, “Mum, I can manage my own life.”
The mother then feels hurt and becomes the Victim: “Fine. Nobody appreciates anything I do. Everything I do is wrong.”
She may then become the Persecutor: “You’re so ungrateful. After everything I’ve done for you…”
And the daughter may then become the Victim herself.
That’s the triangle — people switching roles and pulling each other into the drama.
How do you get out of it?
The way out is to stop playing the role you’ve slipped into: take responsibility for your own feelings and choices, let other people take responsibility for theirs, and say what you actually need without blaming or rescuing. We can help other people – but check that they actually want our help first.
None of this is to say we do not have painful things in our lives - life can bring really painful events to us. It is just about the way we relate to our challenges.
I have found this helpful. Maybe others will too.
M0nica
I do not want to be dismissive, but isn't this just a description of everyday lives? Do not most of us go through every role listed here on a daily basis, from most minor of incidents to major, in the slightest way to the most serious. It is called being human.
And without the capital letters and couching it in psycho speak?
I'm not sure what psycho speak is.
The Karpman Triangle is a much respected model of human behaviour and is often used as part of the Transactional Analysis school of thought.
Well I feel pretty strongly that I've seen this before as a model of dysfunctional behaviours.
It doesn't feel like a description of "everyday life" to me.
NotSpaghetti
Well I feel pretty strongly that I've seen this before as a model of dysfunctional behaviours.
It doesn't feel like a description of "everyday life" to me.
Like everything in life it is on a scale from trivial to serious
Trivial: I loaded dishwasher early on when living with DD for a few months,(Rescuer) DD rushes in and takes it all out, saying I only load dishwasher when I am ready to use it. (Victim) I say, sorry only trying to help (Victim). DD tells me that it doesn't help and not to do it again (persecutor/ Length of event: well under 5 minutes.
OK.
I see what you are saying M0nica.
It's a theory, a pattern, which might give more understanding to/with our own transactions.
It's new to me, and is making me think.
M0nica
NotSpaghetti
Well I feel pretty strongly that I've seen this before as a model of dysfunctional behaviours.
It doesn't feel like a description of "everyday life" to me.Like everything in life it is on a scale from trivial to serious
Trivial: I loaded dishwasher early on when living with DD for a few months,(Rescuer) DD rushes in and takes it all out, saying I only load dishwasher when I am ready to use it. (Victim) I say, sorry only trying to help (Victim). DD tells me that it doesn't help and not to do it again (persecutor/ Length of event: well under 5 minutes.
MOnica
In a nutshell 👏👏
Exactly what happens in thousands of households every day: life!
M0nica
NotSpaghetti
Well I feel pretty strongly that I've seen this before as a model of dysfunctional behaviours.
It doesn't feel like a description of "everyday life" to me.Like everything in life it is on a scale from trivial to serious
Trivial: I loaded dishwasher early on when living with DD for a few months,(Rescuer) DD rushes in and takes it all out, saying I only load dishwasher when I am ready to use it. (Victim) I say, sorry only trying to help (Victim). DD tells me that it doesn't help and not to do it again (persecutor/ Length of event: well under 5 minutes.
M0nica 😀
That resonated with me as daughter is living here pro tem and never loads the dishwasher as it should be loaded, or rather as I like it loaded, so I quietly rearrange everything so it washes properly.
No song and dance about it.
She does it her way, I do it mine.
Now 🤔 am I Victim, Rescuer or Persecutor?
None of those JenniRen they only work in tension situations.
This, I suppose, is why it's a model of things not working.
You quietly resolve the dishwasher situation. M0nica's example makes a dispute out of it.
It's a (trivially) dysfunctional situation.
It's just life. I don't feel the need to for a structured analysis. I can't see how it helps. Just an academic sitting behind their desk getting paid to find something to say.
It's like the stages of grief that were postulated - no help to anyone at all. It just is what it is ....
Old cynic me ........ 
Agree NotSpaghetti. I used Transactional Analysis in my role as a trainer in the 80s. It is just another tool to help when communication seems difficult for some, not all, people. An old concept but still a valuable one. It’s not rocket science.
NotSpaghetti
None of those JenniRen they only work in tension situations.
This, I suppose, is why it's a model of things not working.
You quietly resolve the dishwasher situation. M0nica's example makes a dispute out of it.
It's a (trivially) dysfunctional situation.
I get very tense if the dishwasher isn't loaded correctly.
Is there a Martyr category?
That's psycho-babble.
M0nica
"I do not want to be dismissive, but isn't this just a description of everyday lives? Do not most of us go through every role listed here on a daily basis, from most minor of incidents to major, in the slightest way to the most serious. It is called being human."
Exactly.
I'm too busy getting on with life to stop and check which category I fit into.
The stages of grief were misused. Kubler Ross designed them as a theory/ idea for people nearing the end of life. I think when recources for help are scant it is attractive to wish to think in these terms.
It is possible to read up on these things and ponder, rather than be dismissive and call them psychobabble.
The Karpman Triangle is not as widely accepted as some might think now. It is one theory which has been dismissed by some as too restrictive.
I call nothing psycho babble, which anyway refers to the person using it not the psychology behind it. People who know nothing about psychology pick up some vague idea they do not fully understand and use it all the time = narcissism for example -, without any idea whether what they are saying is correct. That is osychobabble
In fact narcissism is a recognisable and accepted mental ondition with a specific diagnosis and when qualified psychologists talk about it, it is not psychobabble
We solve our own problems, ask for no opinions or advice, and equally treat our ADULT children as if they can take care of themselves. Sorted.
I haven't called it psychobabble!
Having worked with people in crisis in their lives I have never found these theories helpful, partly because they can be misused (see Kubler-Ross) and partly because they go in an out of favour - they are not expressing universal truths.
I always found that starting where the person was and staying grounded was a better way forward and one that people can relate to. They do not have to choose to "buy in" to anything.
Luckygirl3
I haven't called it psychobabble!
Having worked with people in crisis in their lives I have never found these theories helpful, partly because they can be misused (see Kubler-Ross) and partly because they go in an out of favour - they are not expressing universal truths.
I always found that starting where the person was and staying grounded was a better way forward and one that people can relate to. They do not have to choose to "buy in" to anything.
Indeed but good to have some theory in the background maybe.
Yes - theories were ticking around in the back of my brain but I did not adhere to a particular approach. Life is too complex and nuanced for that.
I agree with those who say the Karpman Drama Triangle is helpful - and also with those who say relationships can be more complex than the Drama Triangle suggests. Life is nuanced and complex - but this idea for me opens up a new way to consider some important interactions. And as self knowledge is liberating - even if not always initially welcome or comfortable - i am glad to have seen it.
Applegran, it's a really clever and useful way to understand behaviour that seems to be going off the rails. Way back in time I used to teach communication skills and often referred to the Karpman Drama Triangle so students could use it to examine their own behaviour and modify it if required. I agree it's good stuff 😊
its not a triangle, its called LIFE
If I try to help and be thoughtful I'm wrong! If I step back, mind my own business I'm wrong! I've decided I'm in the damned if you do and damned if you don't category!
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