The law, courts and sexual offences

Thanks for raising this important issue.
I feel very strongly about this. It does seem that sexual offences are not taken as seriously as they should be, indeed we have the case recently of the three boys who raped underage girls but initially were not given a custodial sentence due to a lenient judge ignoring the victims and praising the boys for behaving so well in court. Thankfully public outrage forced the case to be reviewed and I believe two boys now have custodial sentences. But it should not have turned out that way in the first place, where a judge could praise the boys and throw the victims under a bus.
This is why so many girls and women don’t report sexual offences. The whole system is skewed in favour of the offender, as if it is the victim who is guilty until proved innocent, with the victim’s lifestyle under scrutiny - ‘was she drunk’ ‘has she had sexual relations with other boys/men’ ‘was she dressed and behaving inappropriately.’
Indeed one of the underage girls who was raped by the boys already mentioned was described as ‘a bit of a rebel’, why was that even relevant???

Am sorry about your experience Cossy. That must have been so horrid for you and though I luckily have never been sexually assaulted a school friend of mine was raped by another friend’s dad whom she had a crush on. She only told me years later. She never told a soul.

This must be treated as a male problem by society, police and the judiciary.

Rape and sexual assault is as much about power and control over women than orgasm for the perpetrators.

GrannyGravy13

This must be treated as a male problem by society, police and the judiciary.

Rape and sexual assault is as much about power and control over women than orgasm for the perpetrators.

I completely agree.

I’m guessing it doesn’t help that many many police and Judges are male.

Then we have the pitiful situation of rape within marriage. I still don’t feel rape if this type is taken seriously enough.

Not if, of

At last, a Thread we can all get behind.

As women we can only feel empathetic to those who have suffered sexual assaults knowing some victims will be damaged for life because of those. Particularly when we feel the justice system is loaded in favour of the perpetrators. Who of us can forget the Fordingbridge rapes, two young girls who suffered those assaults that were filmed at the hands of teenage boys who, according to the judge behaved very nicely in court, and as such, he wasn't going to give them a custodial sentence. Judges without judgement in a court scenario did he think they'd show the side of their character that their victims saw. It was staggering how dismissive he was of the girls suffering as if they can pick themselves up, dust them selves down and just move on. It literally drives some to suicide. At the very least they will be traumatised and quite possibly suffer the knock on effect of affecting their future relationships.

I’m guessing it doesn’t help that many many police and Judges are male

Personally, I think that that is the core issue.

Well that, and the unfortunate fact that it is often one person's word against another.
With not enough evidence I presume.

I sometimes wonder if a certain secret society comes into play often, but I have no evidence.

A friend of one of my DD is in the middle of a court case, charges brought, via her, for repeated rape and sexual assault and Domestic Abuse.

This isn’t the first time he’s appeared in court and for other related offences.

He’s been on bail twice and broken bail twice. The police couldn’t locate him at his bail address and when the police did catch up with him in the street, he ran off.

They eventually took him into the police station, charged him and then gave him bail yet again.

She has had to relocate to a refuge in another country with her two children.

She has a meaningless and pointless “non molestation order” and bail conditions state he cannot attempt to contact her online or via phone. He’s already broken the bail conditions and the court case won’t take place until next year.

In my opinion he should be held on remand.

Ooops County not Country.

Definitely

And then dealt with strongly.
Sorry about your DDs friend. That is awful.

My heart goes out to your DDs friend Cossy, what an absolute shambles and what a nightmare for your friend.

Women do not feel protected. This is for sure. And as well as sex offences there are the violent abusive ex boyfriends or partners who serve time for domestic abuse then are released after a paltry sentence. The female victim begs the police to help her when the ex keeps trying to break a restraining order, and eventually it is the old story of the poor woman ending up murdered by her ex.
The amount of anger and hatred there is out there for women is terrifying, but the judicial system still doesn’t take women as seriously as they should, despite every year countless girls and women being raped, sexually assaulted, and murdered by men whom in most cases they know.
Here in London I know women do not trust the Met, let alone the courts.

A great thread. I was Sexually assaulted last year in a very "safe" situation and was believed by the initial policeman who talked of magistrates court et al. the it went to the arresting ordinary bobby n the beat who suggested no consequences if he just plead guilty. Nice older chap, thought policeman 2, been a bit naughty.

He did, then went round the organisation whining about it and was believed and this is the sad thing often by women who thought him a charming elderly gent. Fooled all.

It was an appalling time being told by one couldnt have happened he was Mr Good guy saving homeless people. Others "it count have been thatbad - it wasn't rape.

.Eventually I pushed the police for Restorative justice, he pretended to go along with it, but then..other women started coming forward he had done this and that unwanted touching and emotional pressure.

Its still endemic - the type who are Mr Good Guy "fellow well met" to the outside world and then treat women differently at home or when it suits.

Basically men like him completely fail to see how transgressive their behaviour is and do not understand consent

Despite all that has changed we still have a long way to go, as had been pointed out above in other examples.

its not so much about sex often - its about power. If they cant get what they want or had expected - my attacker had fantasised a cook and bedfellow and that I must feel the same and when it became clear...

I became unwilling to not just touch men but women too for a long time except hugging my son and being with children.

I'm getting through this slowly. it was anger on injustice to women as well as me personally that got me through despite blaming myself at one point. It must have been my fault if people were telling g me it wasn't true and ringing up a helpline who told me that was common to self blame.

How it must be for women who had it a lot worse and had to conceal rape well 🤬 how they got through hiding it I dont know.

In ITV’s new drama Blame, real text messages from a Police WhatsApp group are used as the basis for the story, the actual messages are shown.

I cannot find a transcript online but I can tell you they were misogynistic, sexist, immature and filthy.

The thought of any woman/girl having to engage with such Neanderthals in the worst moments of her life is sickening.

Wyllow3

A great thread. I was Sexually assaulted last year in a very "safe" situation and was believed by the initial policeman who talked of magistrates court et al. the it went to the arresting ordinary bobby n the beat who suggested no consequences if he just plead guilty. Nice older chap, thought policeman 2, been a bit naughty.

He did, then went round the organisation whining about it and was believed and this is the sad thing often by women who thought him a charming elderly gent. Fooled all.

It was an appalling time being told by one couldnt have happened he was Mr Good guy saving homeless people. Others "it count have been thatbad - it wasn't rape.

.Eventually I pushed the police for Restorative justice, he pretended to go along with it, but then..other women started coming forward he had done this and that unwanted touching and emotional pressure.

Its still endemic - the type who are Mr Good Guy "fellow well met" to the outside world and then treat women differently at home or when it suits.

Basically men like him completely fail to see how transgressive their behaviour is and do not understand consent

Despite all that has changed we still have a long way to go, as had been pointed out above in other examples.

its not so much about sex often - its about power. If they cant get what they want or had expected - my attacker had fantasised a cook and bedfellow and that I must feel the same and when it became clear...

I became unwilling to not just touch men but women too for a long time except hugging my son and being with children.

I'm getting through this slowly. it was anger on injustice to women as well as me personally that got me through despite blaming myself at one point. It must have been my fault if people were telling g me it wasn't true and ringing up a helpline who told me that was common to self blame.

How it must be for women who had it a lot worse and had to conceal rape well 🤬 how they got through hiding it I dont know.

I so so agree.

When I was 19 (different to the actual “groping incidents), I consulted a solicitor at our local Citizen’s advice bureau re a job I had.

On the first occasion he was extremely helpful and professional.

On the second visit he was also very professional and extremely helpful.

He offered me a lift home, he had my address, he said he drove past it on his way home and I was his final client that day.

Very naively I jumped into his car, the journey passed without incident, however when we stopped outside where I was living (in a house share, he was aware of this), he leant very close to me, and asked if he could come in, whispering into my ear, “I won’t pretend my wife doesn’t understand me, she understands me only too well”.

I was horrified, he was at least 40, married, a solicitor, and as I found out later, a local councillor!

I looked at him, stated “I don’t think so”, and hurriedly exited the car and rushed to my front door.

He didn’t seem in the least bit bothered and simply drove off.

I was lucky, my mother had brought me up to always stick up for myself and was a somewhat “fiesty” woman who I clearly took after.

What if I’d been a shy and nervous 19 year, as many young women are?

Thus I learned a very important lesson, he was a very respectable man!

Oh no he wasn’t!

I think a great deal of sexual abuse goes on within marriages/partnerships and virtually none of that gets reported. Men wo drink too much or have neurological disorders behave inappropriately all the time to the point of rape and nothing is said.
My late OH had PD. His behaviours were totally out of order .... but what can you do? Report a sick man to the police?

Cossy your post makes me want to cry for you and other young women in similar situations. But then also sooo angry.
These seemingly respectable men just get away with it. If only you had had a half dozen elder brothers to give him a bit of a shake up.
And reporting to the police would have been useless as they would have belonged to an old boys' club no doubt.

Hopefully todays Rape Centres would have given you some advice and an understanding er.a

Ear not era.

HelterSkelter1

Cossy your post makes me want to cry for you and other young women in similar situations. But then also sooo angry.
These seemingly respectable men just get away with it. If only you had had a half dozen elder brothers to give him a bit of a shake up.
And reporting to the police would have been useless as they would have belonged to an old boys' club no doubt.

Hopefully todays Rape Centres would have given you some advice and an understanding er.a

I was very lucky as nothing actually happen. In some ways my post was in direct support to Wyllow3, in so much as these “respectable older men” are often nothing like respectable!

Thank you though, for your kind words.

My sympathies , Luckygirl, it's the meds they are put on I had to find that out for a friend. Indeed what to do?

These incidents are so common place in our pasts, are they not?

My supervisor at uni for my final essay (a girls college, but a bloke who knew my field) asked me out for a meal. OK I thought, nice bloke, 5 children. Towards the end of the meal he suggested we go to a hotel. I didn't say a word to anyone. (back in 1973)

The doctor in A and E when I came in for something in and was sleepy on morphine who had a good feel up of my breasts and said it was medically necessary (er, no). who would have believed me? (2005 ish)

And the bigger one - in my role as a Community Volunteer organiser late 1980's I had occasion to go to the house of the Methodist minister of the church who were starting a lunch club up.
His wife was in the kitchen.
We got to talking about religion and why one believed or not.

As I got up to go, he seized me full on tight and tried to kiss my mouth. Disgusting. I wriggled out and made good my escape. I told my boss and she said drop it.

Then he wrote me this weird letter about how he had been a missionary inn Africa and had sex with women who had HIV and how worried he was he had got it and his wife didn't know.

How many of us have had incidents like that in our pasts?

In a more contemporary setting my second marriage ended because of co-ercive abuse (my first was to a lovely bloke whom I still see as we have DS and get on well). Now his behaviour was partly character (a life together of put downs and isolation) but partly he had Bi polar and therefore extreme behaviour, but he wouldn't take his meds and he was dangerous to me (I was actually safeguarded by SSD and police against him).

Looking back, his beef was that he didnt like women being more articulate, he wanted a wife who did what he wanted all the time, didnt play her music or make her friends and so on.

I dont believe this last comment just is about me at all, and I do hope a younger generation of women would say "no way" on that one.

but I bet most of us know about women still who cant get out of a relationship because of lack of money or confidence or fear of being alone.

this little examples are but the tip of an iceberg? Because my concerns is that this sort of behaviour is returning and still lies dormant.

Yes many of us have brought up sons who wouldn't dream of being like that, and there are many older men who are true "gentlemen"

Luckygirl3

I think a great deal of sexual abuse goes on within marriages/partnerships and virtually none of that gets reported. Men wo drink too much or have neurological disorders behave inappropriately all the time to the point of rape and nothing is said.
My late OH had PD. His behaviours were totally out of order .... but what can you do? Report a sick man to the police?

Yes!

My DH is a recovering alcoholic and at times his behaviour was appalling, but at no time ever did he attempt to coerce me into sex or force me, if he ever had we wouldn’t still be married.

However sick or ill or addicted anyone’s life partner is, there is simply no excuse for this behaviour.

Sorry to be so harsh and I’m so terribly sorry you endured things during your own marriage that should never ever have happened

Wyllow3

My sympathies , Luckygirl, it's the meds they are put on I had to find that out for a friend. Indeed what to do?

These incidents are so common place in our pasts, are they not?

My supervisor at uni for my final essay (a girls college, but a bloke who knew my field) asked me out for a meal. OK I thought, nice bloke, 5 children. Towards the end of the meal he suggested we go to a hotel. I didn't say a word to anyone. (back in 1973)

The doctor in A and E when I came in for something in and was sleepy on morphine who had a good feel up of my breasts and said it was medically necessary (er, no). who would have believed me? (2005 ish)

And the bigger one - in my role as a Community Volunteer organiser late 1980's I had occasion to go to the house of the Methodist minister of the church who were starting a lunch club up.
His wife was in the kitchen.
We got to talking about religion and why one believed or not.

As I got up to go, he seized me full on tight and tried to kiss my mouth. Disgusting. I wriggled out and made good my escape. I told my boss and she said drop it.

Then he wrote me this weird letter about how he had been a missionary inn Africa and had sex with women who had HIV and how worried he was he had got it and his wife didn't know.

How many of us have had incidents like that in our pasts?

In a more contemporary setting my second marriage ended because of co-ercive abuse (my first was to a lovely bloke whom I still see as we have DS and get on well). Now his behaviour was partly character (a life together of put downs and isolation) but partly he had Bi polar and therefore extreme behaviour, but he wouldn't take his meds and he was dangerous to me (I was actually safeguarded by SSD and police against him).

Looking back, his beef was that he didnt like women being more articulate, he wanted a wife who did what he wanted all the time, didnt play her music or make her friends and so on.

I dont believe this last comment just is about me at all, and I do hope a younger generation of women would say "no way" on that one.

but I bet most of us know about women still who cant get out of a relationship because of lack of money or confidence or fear of being alone.

this little examples are but the tip of an iceberg? Because my concerns is that this sort of behaviour is returning and still lies dormant.

Yes many of us have brought up sons who wouldn't dream of being like that, and there are many older men who are true "gentlemen"

I was absolutely determined to bring up our two sons to respect women and my two daughters to be able to completely understand that they had a right to say “no”.

I was also insistent on them all understanding “consent” and “respect” and about condoms!

They probably thought, at times, I was a raving loony!

However I do seem to have got my message across.

Of course there are plenty of men who are “respectable”, “respectful” and “responsible”.

I went through some of the worst inappropriate behaviours from my late OH during his illness. My children have no idea. Makes grieving somewhat complex.

I am not alone in this I know.

Women are so vulnerable.