Billions of pounds

Eloethan Sat 11-Apr-20 00:05:33

People like Rees-Mogg are simply despicable.
Profiting off the misfortunes of others.
Note that this is how these specimens have set up all our 'care' systems and are constantly machinating to do this to the NHS.

Eloethan Thu 09-Apr-20 23:59:31

Excellent post.
Couldn't have put it better.

One of the first things that came to mind as most of the workforce was laid off is the possibility of a debt jubilee for all if this lockdown continues (not just for the selected few as now).

Gvts can't indefinitely continue to create money out of thin air. Thus furloughed people won't be able to service their debts indefinitely.

Glad you've got some sun, Nfk. It''s very grey up here in Co Durham

Thanks for the blog links Maisie. I shall now go and sit in the sun and have a read.

Well we’ve spent more on Brexit than we ever contributed to the EU, and we got free trade and lots of benefits in return don’t forget, so leaving hasn’t saved us anything - and being outside it will undoubtedly cost much more ( striking all those fabulous deals with the US and China look a bit hollow now). “Looking after our own” using our own resources is impossible, since we import 60% of our food and don’t really make anything ourselves anymore. A friend is a civil servant working on Brexit and getting paid lots of taxpayers money, she is now WFH , along with the rest of her department , on sourcing supplies for the NHS quite rightly - from the EU! Couldn’t make it up - so no work being done on Brexit in the legal team it’s “all ground to a halt” to use her words.

Excellent post Maizie.

What a crazy world we live in when a tragic global event such as this is seen as a wonderful opportunity for those whose only aim in life appears to be grabbing as much money as possible:

From the Daily Mail 5.4.20:

"Jacob Rees-Mogg's investment firm is accused of exploiting worldwide market volatility caused by the coronavirus panic to rake in huge profits.

"The MP owns 15 percent of Somerset Capital Management, whose chiefs appear to be investing in businesses hit hard by falling stocks.

"Executives have told clients the international crisis is providing a 'once in a generation' chance of earning 'super normal returns' the Sunday Mirror says. "

Of course, he and his firm won't be the only ones. But it does make me wonder whether people like this, whose goals appear to be wholly related to the acquisition of wealth are the best people to be MPs.

well said

Nothing at all to be ashamed of, May7. Very few people do know it.

Who is really interested in the development of 'money', its functions, its history, its source? Just as long as we have got enough to live on with comfort most of us don't even think about it. Not a criticism, just a fact.

I just saw information on a blog 2 or 3 years ago and followed it up because I thought it was interesting. It completely turns upside down any vague ideas one might have about how a national economy works, especially when incorrect (but useful to the government) information has been pushed for decades and accepted as the 'truth'.

For anyone who might be interested in looking further, there's a list of good sources on this blog page:

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/04/08/modern-monetary-theory-resources/

I think it should be made clear that this account of how national economies 'work' is completely apolitical. The fact that its proponents seem to be more left-wing than right wing is probably due to the fact that MMT blows a gaping hole in right-wing ambitions to privatise every public service that they possibly can, on the grounds that 'we can't afford it'. Well, we clearly can afford it, the 'right' is being forced by current circumstances to create more money to keep the economy ticking over.

As noted in the OP, they'll try to claim that it needs to be 'repaid'. The question to ask is '*Who is it to be repaid to*?

Yes it enlightened me too maisieD Bit ashamed to say I didnt actually know this. But I do now thanks

I have been stimulated by some of the posts on this thread, especially those which explain how modern 'fiat' economies work and really want to thank those who have an understanding of them for their persistence in trying to explain them to a largely resistant and incredulous audience. MaisieD has posted a link - it is worth watching.

As the old saying goes, you (the government in this case) can fool some of the people all of the time and all the people some of the time but....

Perhaps the government should give everyone £5000 as they have in there countries?

Correction National debt is around 2 Trillion we own 80% of the assets

We are borrowing against the value of “UK PLC” the total value of assets in the country, the land, the buildings, the infrastructure, The Total value is in excess of £10 Trillion Pounds at today’s value, on the debit side we have borrowings around £1 Trillion, so as nation we own 90% of everything. There are many countries having serious difficulties, of those Argentina and Venezuela the economy and currency has collapsed.

Government support in the current crisis has been vaunted at £750 Billion, however a large part of that is loans which will have to be repaid, nevertheless the cost will be high. A bigger risk is business not being able to pay their debts, we are seeing banks being very cautious about increasing lending. They are very worried about property value collapsing, commercial property has been weak for years and the government is only guaranteeing loans for one year. Residential Property is also under pressure many lenders are asking for 40% equity, they fear the housing market will crash

The current problem is nobody has any cash, businesses have no money coming in so cannot pay out because they can’t borrow. Travel companies cannot pay refunds they don’t have the cash, tenants cannot pay the rent they dont have cash either. So those furloughed are OK but if they cannot get back to work quickly, they might not have businesses to return to.

My understanding is that money, in terms of coinage, was introduced because societies became more complex and the system of bartering was too clumsy and eventually totally impractical.

Now, rather than just being just a method of exchange, money has a value in itself - so people buy and sell currencies and gamble on certain financial events taking place or not taking place.

I think the way the financial system works is a mystery to most people - it's certainly a mystery to me - but even economists have very different ideas as to how the system should work or even how it does work.

In my view the problem is that so much energy is spent in producing products and services that, until they were marketed, we didn't think we needed. You only have to watch Dragon's Den to see that the majority of products and services presented by those seeking investment money are fairly pointless and/or merely "tweaking" in a fairly superficial way something that exists already.

In my opinion, we need a system which satisfies everybody's basic needs - enough food to stay healthy, clean water, somewhere to live, warmth, health and education.

Money is an artificial construct but the financial structures that have built up around it appears not to work for the majority of people in the world or for the natural environment on which all people ultimately depend. Instead, the majority of people work to maintain the construct without ever questioning if this is the best way to do things.

There are great skills in this country (and other countries) and people who are willing to work hard. We've seen this during the crisis - racing car engineers immediately turning their skills to making medical equipment, fashion designers switching their fashion lines to producing protective clothing for health workers, etc, etc. I think people are basically altruistic and want to work for the good of society - just look at the number of people who have volunteered during this crisis - not for money but because they want to do something useful. But our finance system distorts that generosity of spirit and drive and turns it into a dog eat dog competition.

It has already been shown that the notion of debt is also an artificial construct. We were told we could not possibly give money to the NHS because the money was just not there. Now - on top of the huge amounts of money offered to businesses and employees during this crisis - the government has stated it will write off the entire debt that has built up over the last few years. At the press of a button, it is wiped out. It is all about who decides what the priorities are and who benefits from setting those priorities.

I'm not sure where our New Zealand government got their extra money. We are in lockdown with non essential businesses all shut down. There will be businesses that do not survive this however while there will.be many unemployed and we ourselves will find ourselves with no.income until tourism starts again our country is getting on top of the virus and so far we have only had one death.

Ngaiol that’s petty.

You know that ventilators aren’t the main answer? They only “save” about a third of those who have to be put on one, and even if you are saved you may be very very damaged. And please don’t think a country’s finances are like a home’s, they are completely different.

quizqueen
unless you prefer that ventilators are sent abroad instead of using them for any of your loved ones here who may catch coronavirus
Someone has just asked what you meant by this statement and I would like to know what you meant too?
Hetty suggests you meant charity should begin at home ?
Please clarify

We really don't need to do anything so mean and small minded, Ngaiol.

The government can issue as much money as it wants to. It doesn't come out of anyone's pocket and we don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Well, if we stop foreign aid that will send billions back into the treasure chests.!!

I think we all have enough to think\worry about. Let the government get on with their job, that's what they're paid for after all.

Maybe the queen could sell some of the Art or palaces that are supposed to be owned by us, that should see us right for a bit.

Nannan2
With you on that.

I'm afraid that the Guardian article is just perpetrating the idea which the tories really, really want you have. That this money has to be 'paid back' in some way. It hasn't. There has been over £300 bn of QE issued in the UK since the 2008 Global Financial Crisis. Most of it for the GFC but some to prop up the pound when it fell dramatically after the EU referendum result. None of it has been 'paid back' by the public. Nor did it cause inflation (apart from house prices because most of the QE money ended up in the hands of the wealthy who 'invested' some in property. Housing was already in short supply anyway. This made house price inflation worse).

Just watch the video: Please....

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/04/09/the-millennials-money-2/