Kinder to leave elderly people with coronavirus in care homes?

It's clear that care of the elderly needs to be reviewed and some actual decisions taken. This crisis has highlighted some of the problems. Maybe it'll be a catalyst but 'a hae ma doots'. Good care costs a lot more than most local authorities, individuals and governments are willing to pay.

omitted word … be "right"

Jane10 It's a phrase which annoys me too, but I do think that it would "right" for a thorough review in the future of the way care homes operate and are funded. Even in "normal" times, they don't do some people many favours. It's going to be a political hot potato, which is why successive governments have avoided it for so long, but the current crisis has really shown up some massive holes in the whole social care system.

By 'right thinking' people I assume you mean people like you?
That is one phrase that really infuriates me and instantly makes me disagree with whatever they are saying!

Notanan, it's Labour policy to provide adequate welfare for all. Until Labour supplants the hypocritical and inefficient present government right thinking people will have to raise our voices to support the cause of fully funded nationalised care homes/ medical care after the pandemic seems less urgent.

Thanks, Notanan.
"There is medication to dry sectetions and morphine to help with palliative covid pain."

Older people and those with disabilities are not seen as being important groups in our society.

Agree.

As I said upthread, infectious diseases that rip through that community every year.

Would people care so much about the nursing home Covid deaths if Covid wasnt something that threatens us all?

I notice we have been deafened by the silence from the CQC over Care Home issues.

Yes.

They have proven that they were never doing what they should have been doing all along.

Things slipped into a state of poor practice and under preparedness under their watch and where is their guidance now?

You're spot on, there, sodapop, although I would say elderly care is by far the least sufficient.

I notice we have been deafened by the silence from the CQC over Care Home issues.

MissAdventure Of course there are some excellent Care Homes and staff as we have seen recently. However the caring role is not sufficiently valued by Governments or the public. Older people and those with disabilities are not seen as being important groups in our society. Perceptions need to change. I was manager of a Care Home, Respite Unit and Community Team for many years so I do gave some insights.

Sending people for hospital treatment delays palliative care and makes it more likely that they'll have a horrible "drowning" death somewhere alien and scary with uncomfortable wires and needles

It has to A. be worth it (a chance it'll work for them) and B. be what they would have wanted.

If the hospital makes them palliative after admission they might never make it back home. They might die waiting on a bright noisy acute ward surrounded by strangers, or die in transit.

Is there any evidence terminal care alleviates the suffering of drowning in one's own ling secretions?

Yes. There is medication to dry sectetions and morphine to help with palliative covid pain. They do not "drown" if having palliative care. A palliative nurse can visit care homes and set up a syringe driver with both so carers dont have to administer it.

There shouldn't be a total ban on people being admitted to hospital from care homes.
There isnt

People die in care homes.
It's no different from someone dying in their family home, and it's often what their relatives prefer.

I understand that there is a difference between a Care Home and a Nursing Home, the names being self-explanatory.

We also need to make sure proper protection is available for all staff.

Notanan2 I agree with most if not all of what you say. It is not an easy situation. Frail elderly people especially with dementia will always be at risk in their care home from any infections. Unfortunately Covid19 is the worse. Shoving them all in a Nightingale Hospital is not the answer -they will be confused and not get the same homely care and reassurance from their everyday life in their care home although admittedly not all care homes are the same.
Saving these people is often not much of a possibility and that being so we need to find a way of making their deaths as easy as we can. My mil was in a care home and our GP asked us about DNR explaining that she would not do rescuscitationfor her own parents as the procedure is “very rough” for the very elderly and leaves them in a worse condition. Palliative care as appropriate needs to be made available to all who need it wherever they are.

I agree it would be cruel to send someone who is going to die into a hospital setting - they should be 'at home' with people who are familiar and in familiar surroundings ..... I wouldn't want it for my family if in that situation.

My SIL is a Senior Carer at a care home - they had PPE 'in a box' ready for if Covid19 broke out, but weren't to open said box until they had a case, They do at least have visors, but no gowns - then he comes home to my daughter and Granddaughters! He has also had a certify a death on Facetime so that the poorly paid GP (who will have got a tasty fee out of it too) didn't have to come in and put himself at risk!! I told him to ask for half the fee next time time or make the GP come and do what he is paid extra for! It is now spreading and they have had positive cases, although he hasn't been able to be tested (as would have to drive 2 hours there and back and have no car!), he may well have had it as went through a week of mild symptoms - who knows? He now needs an anti-body test, nothing else is worth doing now.

lung

Blue Belle has named the elephant in the room.

Is there any evidence terminal care alleviates the suffering of drowning in one's own ling secretions?

I understand there are very efficient tranquillisers. Are tranquillisers sufficient to stop suffering?

Maybe covid will persuade this government social care and medical care are interdependent. And maybe pandemic will persuade this government nurses and other care staff need enough wages .

There shouldn't be a total ban on people being admitted to hospital from care homes.
It should be based on what's best for the individual person.
Not everyone living in a care home has dementia, and they may not even be all that old if they need care because of physical problems.

I have plenty of training.
I'm confident that I can provide palliative care, as has always been the case in homes.

My rate of pay has absolutely no bearing on the level of care I take.

Don't the comments on this thread serve to demonstrate that the issue of social care has been kicked into the long grass for far too long?

The funding arrangements don't work, market forces don't work in such a setting, staff are poorly paid and often poorly trained. Now they have been shown to be inadequately supported through this pandemic, second class to the NHS.

It doesn't seem that HMG had given any real thought to the care sector until too late in the day, when the numbers in hospitals were decreasing, and press attention has turned to the care sector.

I do hope that this crisis will give politicians a much needed kick to review and to improve the care infrastructure and bring it in from the wilderness.

The present system doesn't work.

I posted this question after seeing on Twitter the abuse one of the medics got after saying that people with coronavirus should not be admitted to hospitals from care homes.
My instinctive response was that it would be unkind to say the least. I'm glad that most of you agree with me as, having read the abuse, I'd thought that maybe I was missing some crucial point. Looks like I wasn't!

The trouble with isolating people within care homes is that a good percentage of such people have dementia and simply will not understand or remember why they need to stay in their own rooms.

And you think its better/safer ti have them wandering in acute hospitals or nightingale ITUs instead?