AIBU No going back to school I’m furious.

Yes Trisher we have been told that teachers will not be able to comfort those younger children who have anxiety about separating from parents, e.g teachers will not be able to 'take' children into school. They have strategies to reassure these children verbally but I could see when the head was informing us of this that it went against everything she has believed in for her entire teaching career and against the entire ethos of the school. It is very difficult.

Furret I found the second article you posted really interesting, thank you. It came across as an informative, measured comparison between different country's handling of the return to school. The problem, as sodapops stated before, lies in the the fact that every country is different, every school is different and every child has different needs, particularly the vulnerable ones mentioned.
I wish every pupil could receive the best possible education and care but sadly there will always be huge divides. Private schools are going to be way ahead of the game at providing a safe return to school ... an abundance of space and facilities and an enormous wealth of personnel working for them. The richer children will be racing ahead in terms if their education which will in the long term cause even more of a divide and doesn't seem fair at all.

DIL says they have PPE in school in case a child has an accident and needs attention. However, it has to be retrieved and then put on before the child can be attended to.

Grandad1943 so the school said "No" to your company. It's an Academy they are notorious for getting anything done as cheaply as possible (including teaching).
If you have one company that fails to comply with health and safety regulations do you consider they all do the same? If not why do you consider your one experience with a school gives you the right to criticise them all?
You never answered my question about office workers. Why aren't they all back in the office? Nothing to do with the same problems schools face I suppose.
I don't expect an answer to these by the way. Just another long winded explanation which I can sum up as We thought we were going into a school. They said No. We didn't do it.

Thanks to everyone working so hard to care for children at this difficult time. My heart goes out to those trying to teach young children in such a different way. I don't know how I would have managed never being able to hold a child's hand , give them a hug, or just put my arm around them when they stumbled over their reading. As for the children with special needs who sometimes need restraining to prevent them self harming I can't see how they will cope.
Thanks to the people who have posted real information and experiences on this thread. I have learned a lot.

Wales proposes to take back one third of pupils on a rota system from the end of June. Whether or not this will be feasible for many reasons, not least the reluctance of parents to let their children return, remains to be seen.
It means, by extending the summer term by one week, each pupil will have the opportunity of 6 or 7 days in school.

PS I ought to declare that I have personal reasons for feeling very strongly about this.

Iam64 I might have been too harsh on Granddad earlier. I expect he has good intentions (though remember what they say about those!). I should be more understanding as my own granddad was the same, bless him.

Excuse the long posts but I felt articles from experts from education, science and global health needed to be heard, as well as patents.

Firstly, thanks to trisher, growstuff, woodmouse, furret, callistemon and others, apologies if I don't include your names - who continue to post in support of schools, school staff and children.
My grandchildren age 4 and 5 are missing nursery and school. The four year old will be in reception by September and hasn't seen friends or his classroom since March. Our five year old will move from reception into year 1 in September. That child returned to school this week as both parents are key workers who could no longer struggle on with mum working at home with two small children and dad working 12 hour days. Mum reports that taking her child back was emotionally a challenge but that he came home having enjoyed his day. Both families have had regular phone calls and socially distanced home visits from class and head teachers. Their schools have remained open for key worker and vulnerable children. Teachers have continued to provide work and support to parents and children.

Grandad, two things. Firstly, don't you consider confidentiality in your posts about work you're involved in. The member of staff at the Academy school you mention may well read your comments, either on this group, or when one of the national papers picks this thread up and publicises it. Your negative, critical comments about a future client of your company are unpleasant and can't be good for business.
Secondly, your suggestion that a second class of 15, being taught by video link could have order maintained by a TA or a volunteer speaks volumes to the lack of understanding you have of the challenges in behaviour management many schools face.

The big debate over the past few days has been whether it’s safe to open schools to children other than those those of key workers or classed as vulnerable. However, this isn’t quite the right question to be asking. There will never be no risk. In a world where Covid-19 remains present in the community, it’s about how we reduce that risk, just as we do with other kinds of daily dangers, like driving and cycling. What we should be asking is whether schools are safe enough to open. To answer this, of course, you have to have data. What is needed to inform decisions is information and real-time monitoring, at the local level, to tell us what the daily number of new cases and rate of transmission is. Those concrete numbers should be what drives policy, not a set of abstract arguments, even less an ideological battle.

In the absence of this data, the proposal to reopen schools in England on 1 June remains controversial among teaching unions, the British Medical Association, staff and parents alike. Our view is that schools should reopen as soon as possible, but this must form part of a larger system of “test, trace and isolate” strategies, proper support and full transparency about the trade-offs involved and the large scientific uncertainty.

That scientific uncertainty surrounds two key questions: the first is the degree to which children can transmit the virus to teachers and parents. The second is the number of children likely to develop a severe multisystem inflammatory syndrome several weeks after exposure to coronavirus. A recent study in the Lancet found a thirtyfold increase in children presenting with this condition in Lombardy, Italy, and the research team warned that other countries experiencing Sars-CoV-2 outbreaks would probably also see a rise in cases. The numbers were small and the evidence suggests that the syndrome is likely to be uncommon but, given that we still don’t have data on exactly how many children have been exposed to the virus, we can’t make a calculation as to how rare it actually is.

Elsewhere, we see that Denmark, Norway, Germany and New Zealand are starting to reopen their schools, which raises the question of why those countries might be in a position to do so while the UK is not. Politicians desperate for answers point to a preliminary study from New South Wales in Australia that found that “close contact” in schools resulted in very little transmission. However, one major caveat is that research was conducted during a period when attendance had dropped to 5%, enabling true physical distancing. In addition, early widespread implementation of community testing, contact tracing and isolation of carriers across the country has helped to manage the number of cases. Australia is therefore easing its lockdown against a background of solid control of the virus. The lesson from there and other nations with similarly effective regimes is that the UK needs to suppress the virus and ensure that public health infrastructure is ready to detect new infections and identify clusters rapidly.

Given the difficulties around maintaining physical distance in overcrowded state schools, we need to identify innovative strategies involving the use of larger spaces, phased re-entry, or both. In Denmark, some schools have made use of spaces, such as a football stadium, that aren’t currently being used. This may be a particularly useful tool in major cities with larger schools and class sizes. Germany has asked older children to return first, while New Zealand and Israel have prioritised the return of children who are from vulnerable homes, younger children who require adult supervision or pupils who have learning difficulties. The decision to prioritise younger pupils – because the early years are fundamental to reducing educational inequalities – or to focus on older pupils – because they are better able to follow physical distancing rules and have exams and graduation ahead – is a political one.

Given the higher number of coronavirus cases and active community transmission in the UK, a system whereby the rate of transmission and the number of daily new cases in a given area must be below a set level before schools can reopen could be implemented – and then only if “test, trace, isolate”, social distancing, and hygiene and surveillance measures are in place. These conditions should be agreed in consultation with teachers and school heads, and public health, child psychology and education experts.

The tragedy is that the countries that moved the fastest and “crunched the curve” are those that never had to close schools, or are in a strong position to reopen them quickly. While the number of daily Covid-19 deaths grabs headlines, we must not forget the children experiencing hunger from loss of school meals, those living in abusive households and the widening educational deficit. While many scientific and logistical questions remain, what’s clear is that children, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds, are truly paying the price for the UK government’s poor decisions over the past 12 weeks.

• Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh. Ines Hassan is a researcher at the Global Health Governance Programme at the University of Edinburgh

Sorry I had to deal with an errant pet, my sons school has worked tirelessly over the lockdown period, its infuriating to hear people with no knowledge of education say otherwise.

Yes I am infuriated by the lazy teachers nonsense, my sons school has

We need PPE’
Steve Howell, headteacher, City of Birmingham school, a pupil referral unit

“My governors and I found the advice from the independent Sage group really worrying and also the concerns being raised by the teaching unions.

I have a massive feeling of responsibility for all my staff and I wanted to do this right, not fast. The worst-case scenario for me would be if someone gets ill, or worse, because I didn’t take the right precautions. I feel confident I’ve got the back-up of my local authority, Birmingham city council, which has publicly supported school leaders making their own decisions about when it is safe to reopen.

So I have spent the past couple of weeks risk-assessing all of my staff. Out of 145 staff members, 23 are shielding and another 25 are clinically vulnerable, for example they have asthma, diabetes or are from a BAME background. I’m also concerned about our pupils – we’ve got a lot of children who live in three-generation households. I wanted to have time to find out from parents what their risk level is, individually.

But the biggest obstacle is that I need to make sure that my staff have enough PPE. We work with some of the most vulnerable and challenging young people in Birmingham, who have been excluded from mainstream schools. We’ve got some very difficult primary school-aged children who might regularly need holding, either to comfort them or keep them safe. Sometimes these children do very risky things like climbing or trying to hurt other people, and a small number are known spitters.

That’s the reality of the situation, it’s a reaction you sometimes see from very young children when they get upset. When you’re going to be in very close physical contact with a child like that, you’re going to need PPE: apron, gloves, a mask and goggles or a visor.

We know our kids are better off in school. But I have to ensure we have a consistent supply of PPE before I can decide when we will reopen – and it has been a real challenge to source. I’m still working on it.”

As long posts seem to be the fashion on this thread I thought I’d included this.

Anyone with a working knowledge of how to divide by two might have spotted the problem for primary schools. Primary school pupils were, the government said, to be taught in bubbles of 15 in order to maintain some form of social distancing. The average primary class size is 27, meaning schools would immediately require double the number of teachers and classrooms. That’s before we even factor in those that are shielding as a result of their or a loved one’s underlying health conditions. Perhaps the education secretary, Gavin Williamson, was also acting upon “instinct” when he insisted all primary pupils could return to school for four weeks.

It’s worth mentioning that the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies warned that the government’s test track and trace system needed to be functional before schools reopened. Cue Johnson declaring that it would be “world-beating” and “in place by 1 June”. The system however, won’t be “fully operational” until September.

When teachers voiced misgivings at the government’s refusal to release modelling of its guidance, and suggested it all appeared unfeasible, parts of the press first claimed that teachers were in open conflict with our unions – the very bodies we join to represent us. The unions were cast as barons, heedless and unwilling to respect our eager pleas to return and endanger our pupils, families and selves.

This narrative tired quickly, and was replaced with one as well worn as my favourite PJs. Teachers, as perennial shirkers, were, in this new version of the story, refusing to “step up” in the nation’s time of need. The problem was that we were too used to long holidays and clocking off at 3pm. It had nothing to do with a lack of trust in a government that had managed to let the virus run wild in care homes, leaving our most vulnerable to fend for themselves. Teachers couldn’t be forgiven for thinking the series of bungled measures was a sign that our government just might not have a clue.

Anyone with a working knowledge of how to divide by two might have spotted the problem for primary schools
In the week before schools closed in March, the WhatsApp group chat for my daughter’s reception class pinged incessantly with messages. Parents were split between deep distrust of the government’s prevarication and a willingness to give them the benefit of doubt. All of us were struggling, if we were honest, to find a rationale behind the stuttering decision-making of our leaders.
What was the government doing keeping schools open when our closest neighbours – Ireland, France, Germany, Spain and Italy – had already closed theirs? What should parents do in the face of this foot-dragging? Keep children at school, for their family’s sanity, or at home? Those who were being charitable asked for temperance. Our government surely had a credible plan? Somewhere. Right?

In the end, it gave two days’ notice that schools would be closed indefinitely but would remain open to the very vulnerable and children of key workers. This was not clear guidance, given in good time, but a back of the napkin, you-go-on-ahead-and-we’ll-get-back-to-you-on-the-details kind of leadership, a sadly typical feature of Johnson’s government throughout the pandemic.

The scheme to provide vouchers to families of children on free school meals also ended in failure. Edenred, contracted to distribute £234m worth of vouchers to more than 1m homes, did not go through the process of a competitive tender. Thousands were left to go hungry, with teachers donating food or referring families to food banks. And what of the scheme to get 200,000 laptops and tablets to disadvantaged pupils struggling to study at home? Well, that too has had delays. Though, if you believe Gavin Williamson, it remains “on target”. We can’t, I suppose, be surprised.

When it comes to schools, at every stage, the government has botched its handling of the pandemic. When you factor in care homes, PPE, and test track and trace, it looks very much like business as usual

WOODMOUSE49, trisher, I will give you both a basic background into the contact we have had with the Academy school mentioned in my above posts.

As stated our company in general operation only undertake industrial.safety work in commercial workplaces and would not normally venture into what we would view as public safety work in Schools etc. However, when the Acadamy made first contact with our company the matter was forwarded to me as a partner in the business.

I explained to who I believe was the head of the school that we did not undertake the bringing forward of safety regimes in public establishments but in this unprecedented crisis, we may be prepared to.offer advise dependent on circumstances.

I then asked for the matter to be passed to one of our Assignment team controllers, knowing that all our four teams have been working very long hours, including weekends since the coronavirus crisis and lockdown began.

That controller then contacted what I believe was the deputy head of the school informing her he could attend their premises on the following Saturday. He stated that as it was the only day he had available as he and his whole team were due at a workplace in the east midlands on the Sunday of that weekend where they would remain for approximately three days

As stated previously in my posts in this thread, the above offer was met with the comment that she was not available at the school on Saturday's.

In regard to government guidance to schools then it should be remembered that such premises and the work carried out within them will still fall under the Health & Safety At Work Act 1974. Within that act, it states as one of it's primary statutes, that it is for every employer to demonstrate a structured duty of care to all employed within a workplace and also those who could be affected by the tasks being carried out in the workplace.

In the above, both the teaching staff and the pupils under their charge are covered under that above primary safety act and also under the present emergency powers legislation laid down by the government.

It would require to bear carefully in mind that these are young persons who have to be brought within that legislation to enable the school to fully reopen in the present crisis. Should it be that we as a company become engaged in working with the school, I have no doubt the above is the position we would advise on working forward from.

Should it also be that a comprehensive group of safe working practices ( the safety regime) can be drawn up for the operation of the school, then that can be forwarded compete with all risk assessments etc carried out to whoever the appropriate authority is in overseeing the operation of the school.

The school would then be in a position to see what arguments or discussions (if any) are returned from there.

Anyway, I am working again this morning but will endeavour to join the thread later in the day if it is still active.

Since mid-March, teachers have been working very hard to support pupils' learning, preparing for a completely new learning style for pupils at home at 2 days notice, Zoom lessons, on-line work,work set/marked via schools' network, phone lessons, video calls, rewritten resources to accommodate home learning, many worked through Easter and half-term to keep schools open for key workers' children. For pupils without internet access, they've printed and posted work home. All the phone bills, printing, stamps etc at their own expense.

They're rewriting the curriculum for next year to pull things together to fill gaps, and sorted out and evidenced published public exam grades for the 5 key stages (including GCSE and A level which will affect those students' job opportunities for the rest of their lives).

But to listen to the media and some on this thread, it's like they've done nothing. Of course they're defensive, this happens all the time. There was something anti-teacher on the front page of yesterday's Telegraph.

No will? Others working flat out? Working flat out is most teachers' normal.

Maybe those who are berating teachers for schools not being up and running should question the governments guidance to head teachers of which there have been 180 changes in the last few weeks.

The fact is - and there really is no way of getting away from it - half-sized classes need twice the space and twice the number of teachers.

Regarding German school hours ... The German school day usually lasts just over five hours. Schools are open from 8 to just after 1pm. So the suggestion would be that teachers work two five hour shifts with maybe a half hour gap to clean the desks and toilets, etc. and then do a couple of hours of preparation on top of that.

grandad1943.....can I refer you to ellianne’s post of 17.00 yesterday in which she states that German school hours would leave ‘plenty of time for a second shift. That would result in 10/12 hour days. Unlike supermarkets who already operate shift patterns, there are no additional teachers to staff a ‘second shift’

All my comments demonstrate is the absolutely massive task of getting schools open again whilst meeting all regulatory demands from local and central government and other statutory bodies. This is something that will take a massive amount of organisation and cannot be done quickly. As I have said previously, pupils have only lost around 2% of attendance but not 2% of their education. The majority of senior pupils would also have been on study leave anyway during this period.

I heard someone - who is currently self isolating with his elderly parents - describe this situation as ‘a gift of time’. When else as an adult would he have had the opportunity to spend unhurried time with his parents? Perhaps we should take a leaf out of his book, let our youngsters off the treadmill for a short while and give them this precious gift of time.

Grandad1943 Fri 12-Jun-20 09:00:57

Your management of school timetabling (shift/rota) would not be allowed under the government guidelines.

You'd be prepared to take the TA's away from all the support they give children with special needs. My niece would have a few choice words to say about that. Her son gets support for all his literacy lessons and gets one to one sessions with the school's HLTA.

You will also need to ensure your volunteers have had safeguard training and have a DRS check if they are to cover classes on a regular basis.

Thank you as well from me, Trisher.
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I went into primary teaching in my late 30s and over the years progressed through to management, consultancy and after retirement became a governor and continued to help in my local schools. I'm also a parent, grandparent and aunt.

I've left quite a few comments in the two threads about schools opening to primary children before the end of term.

Every time, it is not to argue with some misconceptions but to state the facts that I have read in the guidelines the government have told schools they have to adhere to.

I fail to understand why some on this thread haven't taken the time to read these guidelines. Comments/suggestions some GNers make are in total contradiction to what the guidelines say. These are easy to find on Gov.Uk. Planning Guide for Primary Schools

Grandad1943. The person you say that was offering to see the Deputy in School was lucky to have a free day. Did that person find out when the Deputy could meet? The Deputy's support "will" might have been needed elsewhere that Saturday.

Comments re the dangers of children being in school are not the reasons schools haven't opened up full. But to understand this, some GNers need to read those guidelines I keep harping on about.

If you have very little time, at least read: What to consider when working out staff ratios - there are 8 questions posed schools.

Can anyone make teachers with a 3D printer?

Hah! Even more mansplaining! It seems to be a habit!

Trisher thanks for your posts. In my professional life I do a role connected to schools and have done for 20 years, I have a child about to restart school and I am a school governor, thankyou for trying to counteract some of the nonsense on here.