AIBU No going back to school I’m furious.

Footnote to trisher's post about unions in schools. GMB and Unison (and Unite to a lesser extent) have a significant presence in schools. These days, a secondary school is likely to have a workforce made up of about 50% non-teaching staff, including teaching assistants, other teaching support staff, cover supervisors, technicians, admin staff and cleaners and catering staff (where they haven't been outsourced).

Most of the above belong to Unison or GMB. As I've mentioned before, support staff (including teaching assistants) are likely to be the ones most affected by social distancing because they work closely with the most needy pupils.

I've ploughed my way through some of the many documents already produced by the HSE on schools. It is absolutely clear that even the HSE does not believe that schools can return to anything like normality. For example, in secondary schools, they state that no more than a quarter of pupils should be on site at any one time. Schools would have no difficulty making a case to the HSE that they cannot open fully - it's already in the HSE's documentation.

The issue is that the government seems unaware of the HSE's guidance and is telling the public that schools can go beyond that guidance by admitting all pupils. If they were to do so, they would not only be putting pupils and staff in danger, but contravening the HSE's guidance.

Governance of schools is also an issue. There is no uniform pattern in England (Scotland, Wales and NI are different again). Most secondary schools are now academies with an individual governing body, accountable directly to the DfE. Some primary schools are also part of academy chains, although the majority are still run by local councils. A significant number of schools are also faith schools, which have various governance models.

Really Grandad1943? You're the one who has taken personal offense at your company not getting a contract.

Oh, I would have said they were far less touchy and unforgiving than some.

Sign on a zoo enclosure "These animals are dangerous. If attacked they defend themselves."

I was about to ask whether Grandad knows why she was in bed on the day arranged for the meeting. Coronavirus? Some other illness? Exhaustion? Depression? A night without sleep due to some family emergency? Was the phone call the first she knew that she had been designated for a meeting in five minutes time?

Oh dear, this teaching profession are so touchy. ???

Not business advisors. The business I spoke of was your business, another word for your company. You had implied previously that the school asked you for help and assistance ("advice"), then reneged on a meeting.

Grandad1943 you are just getting silly. the teacher who our controller then contacted could not be bothered to get out of bed on her day off
And there you have it unjustified assumptions revealing a real prejudice. You have no idea why the teacher couldn't be in school that Saturday.

Elegran, your above posts makes.no sense whatsoever. You state, "A school rejected your business as advisor to them in complying with distancing rules".

In the above, We have no "business advisors". That school approached our company looking for help and assistance. However, we normally only deal in specific commercial workplace safety appropriated to us in the main through three large insurance undertakings and two also large employer associations.

The above was explained to the school referred to, but we offered to freely give whatever assistance we could if the time of one of our assignment team controllers allowed.

However, it turned out that the teacher who our controller then contacted could not be bothered to get out of bed on her day off to help the pupils of that school to return to it safely despite the fact that our employee had offered to attend the school on what should have been his day off.

As far as I am aware our controller has not been in touch with the school since. The foregoing I see as typical of the teaching profession in this present time.

The rest of your post Elegran with every respect is total nonsense.

Sorry link again www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/school-funding-cuts-headteachers-downing-street-march-westminster-boris-johnson-a9020756.html

Grandad1943 Firstly there isn't just one teacher's union. There is a list here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachers%27_trade_unions_in_the_United_Kingdom
Strangely enough this crisis has had the exceptional result of actually uniting the unions in their response to the real balls up the government has made. This rarely happens.
There has been a movement in schools and amongst parents to try and get some action from this government about the very real problem that has been building up in education for the past 10 years. If you consistently underfund something you make it unable to withstand any pressure or crisis and that is exactly what has happened.
So you can blame teachers for not organising, and head teachers for not taking over other premises or extending school hours but the fact is things will just get worse.
If you investigate you will find that this government has cut funding per head in every school. They have splurged money on Academies which quite often fail and restricted money to LEAs. The result is a workforce who keep things running with no support staff, no equipment and overcrowded buildings. So if you want to do something can I suggest you write to the Secretary of State for Education and ask him why schools aren't open and stop blaming the teachers who are the only people holding the sector together.
Even before this crisis some schools had cut the school week because they were short of funds and Headteachers went to Downing Street to protest .https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/school-funding-cuts-headteachers-downing-street-march-westminster-boris-johnson-a9020756.html

I asked the question, GD, because you lump 'the educational establishment' together into one homogeneous lump.

I can assure you that if teachers, teaching assistants and support staff approached management and tried to attempt what you suggest, we would be told very firmly to mind our own business and stay within our remit.

You tried and failed. So now you expect us to take up your slack.

Geekesse. Well said!

A school rejected your business as advisor to them in complying with distancing rules. A union bypassed the HSE channels you believe they should have used and wrote directly to the PM that those rules were incompatable with what teachers were being expected to do.

I see now how you came to your conclusion that neither teachers, nor schools, nor unions - "the whole educational establishment" - were doing things properly. They were not using your expertise or involving the HSE

I still don't agree with you, but I can see how your belief in the HSE and your annoyance at the rejection of your company led you to think as you do.

You forget that the Prime Minister should be accessible to ANY concerned approach by a reputable trade union or other organisation on a subject which affects their members and the way they are able to carry out their responsibilities.

Ok, well this individual teacher has been working alongside other staff in the school, including management, support staff, governing body and unions, and although we won’t have more than a quarter of students in at any one time before the end of term, we now have good plans in place for full re-opening in September, subject to a relaxing of social distancing to one metre. I know we’re lucky - we have the space, staffing and resources to be able to do that. Now FFS, Grandad1943, will you please lay off snarling and sniping at teachers and your imaginary ‘education establishment’ and let us get on with trying to work out how to do our jobs? It’s know-it-all armchair experts who make our life so much harder than it is already.

Elegran in regard to your post @21:26 today, an individual teacher can do very little to change anything in regard to any situation in the schools. However, if the teaching profession acts as a large organised group then any situation in the schools may well be changed.

However, in the present crisis situation in the schools, the teaching profession has most certainly not acted as a large well-organised group. Further to that their representative union acted wrongly in directly approaching the government not even by way of a direct meeting, but by way of a letter to Boris Johnson.

In the above, does anyone, in reality, believe that such ineffectual action (or better put as non-action) is likely to bring about a change that will once again regain the full operation of Schools.

Therefore it is only left to parents and others outside of the establishment to conclude that those within the teaching profession are content with the present situation especially in regard to themselves individually.

Teachers are only some of those engaged in managing, teaching and administering education in Britain. Please give the individual teachers a miss for a while and attack the higher echelons. You could start with the highest representative of the "educational establishment"- the education secretary who tamely accepts the diktats of the Prime Minister withut putting up a fight.

Perhaps your experience of individual teachers includes one of the lazy, excuse-ridden, bullying, condescending Napoleons you describe? Then compare it to the experience of those who have seen the flip side of your valiant truck drivers. 99.9% of drivers have come up trumps, but that still leaves 0.01% who cheated and ogled, or were careless when loading or driving their vehicles.

I imagine you would givethe same response to someone who had observed one of them and extrapolated to include them all, as you are getting when you lambast all teachers.

the "educational establishment" is a figment of your imagination.

The NEU, Unison, GMB and Unite have already produced joint comprehensive risk assessment checklists for all phases and special schools. The HSE has also issued guidance.

I would have thought it was obvious GagaJo that when referred to the "Educational Establishment" would all who are "wholly engaged" in managing, teaching and administering education in Britain.

The same would apply when anyone refers to the legal establishment.

I thought you said before it was the Unions who should go to the HSE Grandad1943. Could it be that you realise there is no one and no way anyone could approach them, so you've invented an imaginary body henceforth to be known as the "Education Establishment"?

When you say, Education Establishment, who do you mean?

The Education Secretary? The DFES? County Councils? Academy Groups? School Trusts?

It does not cost money to have the HSE involved. However, such a powerful agency may well be able to gain extra funding from the government if they are convinced that there is a strong case for doing do.

However, all involved in Britains schools require to put forward an organised argument to the HSE as to why Britains Schools cannot open safely or fully under the present emergency regulations

The above has been already stated in this thread but once again no reason is given why the Education Establishment has not carried out such when other industries and sectors have engaged the HSE to great benefit in this crisis.

the vast majority of Britains School pupils are still not being given an opportunity to resume full education.
Grandad Do you know that for a fact, or is it from your own experience?

I know that some are, however, the education is online which is not the same, but my DGC's teachers are doing their very best, as are all the support staff who were working from home too. My DGC have been working normal school hours but online.

Grandad1943 You have been told why. You just refuse to accept it but here you are again
1) There is no money for extra space or extra staff
2) There is no money for anything in education
3)There isn't the staff
4) You can't use extra space if you haven't the staff.
5) many of the support staff in schools are employed for a set number of hours. They like the teachers often come in early and stay late but expecting them to work more hours or in the holidays when they are often not paid isn't right, I suppose they could be asked if they wanted to do more hours and earn extra but
THERE IS NO MONEY !!!!

By all means be angry. At those in power. At those who have a say.

You can carry on insulting and shouting at teachers all you like. You could just as easily shout at the students. Neither have ANY power.